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As many of you know I bought a pair of 4242B's from Guido. These was painted black. I have now started the process to get them into walnut finish.
Here are some pictures of the progess so far. Next step is to attach massive walnut on the front edges, and then buliding the grills. More pictures will come.
Rolf
Nice job on matching the grain pattern from one side to the other! :applaud:
Nice Rolf. Is that veneer "Norwegian Wood"? :) Sorry, I couldn't resist.:p
Good work Rolf :applaud:
Keep us posted!!!
Nicely done. Did you use the iron?
Nice job with the wrap. More details would be appreciated. :D
Yes, right! ......... No actually it is real American walnut.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas
Sorry about the 4242... the 2 is so damn close to the 3.:o:
Rolf
Yes, normal wood glue (water based) on both sides, wait to dry, and then using the iron. Verey easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Val
A big thanks to Yggdrasil for the info.:bouncy:
Rolf
To all:
More pics as the progress is moving on...
Rolf
What temperature for the iron?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
Synthetics
Cotton
Linnen
Great work Rolf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
I used Linnen.
I have read about using that method... I have been concerned about blisters forming over time. Johnny, have you had any pieces that you have done with this technique fail? Do you have any pieces that are say 10-20 years old?
Widget
The iron I used have 1, 2, 3 dots and max. I used 2,5-3. I used my hand to "feel"http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/i...es/redface.gif the temprature to what I thought would be right. AND IT WAS RIGHT.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/i...es/applaud.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Guido
Rolf
Hi Widget. Note that I am using a special product. The venieer is allready fixed to a back side of a non-woven material. I guess a more expencive solution, but much easyer for a amature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
The picture tells the name of the product.
Rolf
funny to see an instruction sheet for the veneer in Dutch!
should you have any problems, send me a copy and I can translate it should you want
in english, not in norwegian that is...
edit >> the part I can read says not to use water based glue in any case, but that is exactly what you have done!
frank
The sheet also include english, and I know that it say: not to use water based glue. They recommend contact glue, but as you know one mistake with that, and "good night".Quote:
Originally Posted by frank23
After a talk with the importer they said "ok". They had never been thinking about using wood glue on both sides, let it dry, and melt it with a hot iron.
Rolf
That's what I like to see. Great results that defy the rules. :applaud:
Good job.
Thank's Dome and everybody else for the nice words.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/i...es/thumbup.gif And now I am oiling and sanding, oiling and sanding x many times ----> a real job. I will finish with a wax polish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Can anybody tell me the exact dimensions on the massive walnut on the front edges? In mm is possible. I will start cutting and sanding them very soon. I would be nice to make them as the original.
Rolf
Hi Widget: I can't show you any work that's 20 years old but I have been using this method for a long time with good results. For what it's worth, here's a few comments on problems I have encountered.
1. I have used paper back veneer, bubble free and phenolic backed veneers. Paper backed is the easiest to work with as it is thinner material. Phenolic backed resembles formica in overall thickness. It bonds well but since it is thicker it's harder to make sure there are no voids or bad bond spots.
2. I have talked a lot about buying some kind of commercial heating iron and never have. My wife's clothes iron works great and she hates to use it anyway. Her current iron used to be teflon coated but I've worn patches of the teflon off pressing veneer.
3. Temp setting is about 1/3 of max for most household irons, or about 160 degrees max. Too much heat and you will melt and puddle the glue under the veneer - TROUBLE - if this happens you need to turn the heat way way down and slowly dry the glue again. All you need is enough heat to re-activate the glue to allow both glued surfaces to bond (just like two surfaces coated with comtact cement.
4. Going over the veneer with a hot iron is not enough. More pressure is required to ensure a solid bond. Heat about 1 square foot at a time and immediately (while the surface is still damn hot to the palm of your hand) roll over that area with a 4" veneer roller applying all the pressure you can. Roll slowly and listen for any crackling sounds. Roll with the grain and then roll side to side against the grain. If you hear crackling it indicates that the veneer is lifting. Heat - roll - heat - roll, until there is no crackling to be heard. After doing the whole surface go aroung all edges again. Let that panel/side sit for several hours and then trim off excess veneer. Then go over the whole surface again slowly with the roller and listen for any crackling. After sitting for a while if the bond is not good it will lift. If this problem occurs hit it with the heat again. I have always used Titebond II and have heated and reactivated as long as two days after laying the veneer.
5. After you have trimmed off excess veneer - take your thumb and fan the entire edge (like you would shuffle thru pages in a book or a deck of cards) and listen for spots where the veneer is loose around the edge. Heat and roll any you find.
6. Bubbles under the veneer usually happen when too much heat is applied. With some practice everyone using this method will find their own settings. Not enough heat and your veneer will be crackling under the roller until your supper is cold. TOO MUCH heat will melt the glue and quite often cause bubbles. If you have a bubble that persists, it can be sliced open using a thin blade modeling knife. Let any trapped air escape, roll the hell out of it and apply less heat in that area to get a bond.
7. Applying the glue - I apply 2 (sometimes 3) coats to each surface using a 4" paint roller. Most veneer manufacturers recommend a 6 to 8 mil glue coating between veneer and substrate. If you skimp and apply only one coat you'll some day, after a big change inhumidity, find your veneer lifting from the surface. Titebond II turns clear when it's dry to the touch. When the first coat is dry you can apply the second/third coat. You can wait as long as a couple of days to apply your veneer but I have had the best results after waiting just an hour or two after the last coat is dry. It will appear dry but you will be able to penetrate the glue with your finger nail and it will feel a bit like a hard rubber surface. If you wait a day or more the glue will be HARD and even though heat will reactivate and bond, I have gotten the best results with the rubber like surface.
That's a lot of rambling and babbling but maybe my techniques will help some of you achieve the results you're looking for. I've had a lot of frustration doing veneer work but have worked out the bugs and have been getting good results.
Buy some veneer and go for it. Rick http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/i...lies/smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Exellent post riessen. This is about the same as I found out, but you gave me a few hints. Thanks
Rolf
Very thorough and good post Rick.
My first project with this technique is only one year old. No new problems yet.
I must admit the first panels was more difficult than the last panels. Mainly due to saving glue. Go with Rick's advice and apply more than one coat, especially to the particle board if that is used.
I also had a few spots with too little glue where I applied glue trhough the veneer using a syringe and thinned glue.
A book on industrial veneering stated that contact glue was only for repair on small spots.
I'll give that method a shot one of these days...
I have an iron I bought for $5 at a thrift store. It is the shop iron used for edge banding... sometimes a bit of the glue gets on the iron surface, even though my wife hates ironing too... if I borrowed her iron and returned it with residue... it wouldn't be pretty.:(
Widget
Man...I'd better get to a thrift shop soon. All these great deals....$3.99 L100's, $5.00 irons...then off to eBay them$$$$$Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Seriously....I love seeing the member's projects progress....there is so much talent around here.
Besides applying veneer using wood glue there are some out there who use contact cement instead. It would be nice to hear from those guys with their tricks and procedures. I have used contact cement on occasion but try to avoid it's use. Here are some of my observations related to the use of contact cement:
1. Contact cement is used to bond veneer by many commercial suppliers. They have the ability to spray apply a commercial version of what we call contact cement and also have the necessary presses and heat to ensure proper bonding. Us do-it-at-home guys are at a big disadvantage in this area. Evenly applied coats (no lumps, no thin spots) is hard to do out of a can.
2. If your project yields any exposed veneer edges you will find those edges hard to hide. The contact cement will not sand free and it will not take stain. I've used things like brown permanent markers and paint pencils to hide the edge with some success.
3. If you are veneering panels that will have trim around the edges, using contact cement will yield good results.
4. There is veneer available that has a 3M brand self adhesive backing (peel and stick) and I have used it several times with good results however there is the same problem hiding any exposed edges. Applying this veneer directly to a sanded wood surface is risky. The surface needs to be clean and sealed before application. I have applied a good coat of polyeurethane varnish to the surface, sanded smoothe and then cleaned the surface with mineral spirits before placing the veneer. With heat and a veneer roller you can get good results.
Just some additional thoughts I wanted to share with all would be veneer installers. I'm always up for learing new tricks so if anyone out there has any, I'm all ears.
Rick http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/i...ies/bouncy.gif
I use contact cement. Weldwood to be specific. Back in the 70's I had trouble as the Watco eventually penetrated and deactivated the adhesive. I switched to a proprietary automobile vinyl top adhesive and that ended that problem. Now I use polyacrylates which negate the eventual adhesive failure problem so it's back to Weldwood.
I started out using Paxton veneers, then Rockler veneers for nearly 20 years (both 10 mil veneers). Then Mr. Widget turned me on to http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/ and I'm trying their 22 mil veneers to great effect. I really like their product.
There's no question that wood glue and a vacuum are the best way to apply veneer.
Hi Giskard - Thanx for tuning in. How do you deal with exposed veneer edges - assuming you have them from time to time?? I'm glad you specifically mentioned Oakwood Veneers as they're truely a class operation. I'm currently cutting up about $400 of their AA Figured Walnut for a couple of monitor projects. The owner Pete offers a "no questions asked" return guarantee and he has always answered my questions. I've used their paper back, bubble free and phoenolic backed in 10 mil and it's all been real high quality. At $7+ a square foot you need some quality guarantee and these guys back their product. I finished one of my 4341's a while back and after oil was applied I found paper showing thru the veneer. It came from another source. You get what you pay for - as the saying goes. Rick
I don't know if I was just lucky, my veneer is (so far) perfectly attached to the boxes. If a small spot should be loose I will go for the same solution as yggdrasil.Quote:
Originally Posted by yggdrasil
Last update: Both speakers are now polished with non-colored wax, and to me they look stunning. When I manage to cut and fit the solid walnut on the front edges, new pictures wil come.
Rolf
A laminate trimmer.Quote:
Originally Posted by riessen
Don't think for a moment that I am a woodworking expert. It is definitely just a hobby for me and I am nowhere near a master craftsman. That would be my dad and I am not a chip off the old block in that respect.
Yep. Had the same problem before. That's when I whipped out the paint and paint brush. You can see a JBL picture somewhere of a guy painting the veneer line on a box. So far with this 22 mil veneer from Oakwood all the exposed edges are wood and you can't see any paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by riessen
22mil paper back veneer???? I've not seen that on their inventory list. I need to give them a call. It's alwys been my uderstanding that the "mil" size referred to the thickness of the paper backing and that the wood veneer laminated to the paper was the same thickness. So - 10 mil veneer is wood veneer laminated onto 10 mil thick paper. Overall thickness will vary depending on how much finish sanding is done at the mill to provide a finished product. So - based on what I've been told 22 mil veneer would have the same wood layer laminated onto a 22 mil paper back. What I've always taken for gospel is now starting to bug me. I need to make a call first thing Monday and get some answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giskard
Always something new when we get into these discussions - Thanx
.
YES - Bubble Free Veneer - I have used it and have some now in walnut. I didn't make the connection between BFV and 22 mil. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but good so far. Thanx
I have used contact cement for years with excellent results. Do not use the low odor water based stuff... it will bubble up later. I have used a high tech 3M product that is a two component system that requires their own special gun... it is excellent, low toxicity and excellent working properties. The negative is you must buy a large quantity of the material at a time and you must buy their gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by riessen
I'll second Giskard's Weldwood recommendation. I have sprayed it with a dedicated pressure pot, (excellent results, but a real pain to clean the equipment) and I have used a firm low nap roller. With care you can get a smooth film with no bumps or puddles. I always use at least two coats and I always wear an organic vapor respirator... this is a must.
For thicker veneers with no backer I have found that the only way I can be certain of success is to use either a physical veneer press or a vacuum bag press. Both are great for building up panels but problematic for applying veneer to a finished speaker. With both types of presses I have had excellent results with standard yellow wood glue, hide glue, and resorcinol glue. The only problem I ever had was with a very porous wood (like burls) where the wood glue migrated up to the surface and ruined the veneer. For woods like this you need to seal the wood first.
Widget
NIIIIIIIIIIIICE JOB!!!:applaud: :D :applaud: :D :applaud: :D :applaud:
Personally I have never tried my hand at veneering and really admire anyone who can do such a beautiful job!
I've done patching repair work but never from scratch. You guys are teaching me alot and giving me the courage to give it a "press":bouncy: . Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLROCKS
Have you had trouble finding the solvent based Weldwood lately. The last time I went to buy it in SoCal the shops only had the water based stuff. Also I am interested in what kind of veneer press you use for speakers. That has been my number one problem unless I choose to do one side of the box at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
You can thank the AQMD for that. On the one hand, I applaud them for continuing to work on improving air quality in SoCal, even with unpopular solutions. Yet with the other, I support their actions more when they affect me less. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by andresohc
Dave - The reason you're not doing great veneer work is that you haven't motivated yourself to give it a try. It's NOT rocket science. If it was I couldn't do it - or I'd be a genious and we all know that's not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by norealtalent
Buy some veneer and find an old beat up pair of L100's or similar and get started. You'll be surprised at how easy it is. Remember what Bill Cosby used to say on his old TV show (maybe you're not old enough to remember) In wood shop he made a lot of great things but he made a lot of mistakes too. Anytime he screwed something up, he'd just cut a couple of notches in it and give it to his mother, telling her it was an ask tray. If your mother doesn't smoke you'll have to find another way to cover up your mistakes.
I will have pics to you today on the corner rebuilding that we talked about.
Rick http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/i...ies/bouncy.gif
Not entirely the fault of the AQMD. They are charged with reaching attainment of the State and federal Ambient Air Quality Standards and when the population center is this large, you've gotta do what you can, even when unpopular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
(Besides, they send me a lot of consulting work.;) )
That reminds me about the finish on the M9500. JBL had to have the enclosures finished in Arizona and then sent to Northridge to have them loaded with components.Quote:
Originally Posted by andresohc
The Titebond wood glue and vacuum is real good. I think Rockler just came up with a less expensive veneer vacuum.
Honestly, I've got no beef with AQMD, and I've spent several weekends out at their Diamond Bar facility. Their job is daunting and sometimes unpopular. Since I live and work in the LA Harbor area, site of some of the worst pollution, I consider AQMD my friend. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by toddalin
Am currently working on the air quality and noise analyses for the EIR for the hazardous waste remediation there in Wilmington.:blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
A quick lookup shows that the "decoflex" veneer manufacturer is Belgian,
it can be found here : http://www.decospan.com
attach the massive walnut to the front of the cabinet the best and easiest way?
I know I can use contact glue, but there will be no time for adjustments. Anybody have a tip of another glue to use?
Rolf
As far as "No time for adjustments using contact glue", You could use strips of cardboard placed on top of the preglued surface, to prevent the laminate from "Sticking". Once you have the laminate where you want it, carefully pull the strips of cardboard out, while securing the position of the laminate. I used this method to install an L shaped piece of laminate on a counter top that measured 120" X 56". As I removed the strips, I used a roller, to insure a tight bubble-free bond.
I would stick with wood glue. Makes a very strong connection. Easy to adjust.
Hi Rolf,
Well done ! Chapeau ! I have seen that veneer before with a friend of mine who's a cabinet-maker. That veneer is pretty expensive but easier to handle. I intend to do the same with my black Tolex Vinyl covered JBL 4312 B MK II Control Monitors. Did you remove the original covering ?
Do you have the recipe of the original "JBL"cabinet-oil ?
Quoting a JBL-heritage member:
Reoiling Walnut Cabinets
Today I dropped by the local hardware store and picked up some boiled linseed oil and pure gum terpentine, mixed it 1/4 terpentine, 3/4 linseed oil and applied it to my L300 cabinets with a piece of cloth from an old black cotton t shirt. After letting the mixture sit for about a half hour I wiped it off with a clean/dry piece of black cotton t shirt. This is the same mixture JBL used to oil the cabinets at the factory and it was noted in the older owners manuals re care of the cabinet finish. I'll let it sit overnight and add another coat in the morning but so far the cabinets look excellent with a very low luster and the grain pattern highlighted. If I remember correctly it was recommended to do the simple process at least once a year to keep the walnut veneer looking its best. The cost of the boiled linseed oil and pure gum terpentine was about $12 plus tax and should be sufficent for a lifetime of reoiling.
Lots of success,
Jan Slagman
The Netherlands.
The speakers was in studio grey, later painted black. I just sand it down a bit. On the front edges I had to sand it down totally to get a strong fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by jan_slagman
No, I use "LIBERON" finishing oil, and the result is about the same as original. Maybe a little lighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by jan_slagman
Rolf
Hi.
Here are some new pics after the attachment of the front lists. Next step is to make the grills. Anybody have good ideas what to do to make them look fine? The frames are already made.
Contact Zilch for the material he's got;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
Very nice. When I did my 4507s, I removed the components. 40 LBS less to deal with.
How did you get the veneer so flat while gluing? The moisture in the glue will curl it up. Spraying water on the opposite side will offset the glue.
You did a great job!
Ron
Hi. If you take a look at the first pictures you will see that I used a special product (Decoflex) and not the the small veneer strips. Then I used water based wood glue on both the box and veneer, let it dry and used an iron to attach them together.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbl
Did you remove the vinyl from the 4507's?Quote:
Originally Posted by jbl
Is your "redo" documented somewhere in the forum?
[Link please....]
Hi Rolf: Sorry for being such a slacker here. It looks like you finally got your front edge trim cut to proper angle and installed. That little bit of trim makes a big difference in appearance. Are they finished now?
Rick :bouncy:
Very soon Rick. I have to get the frames made a 2nd time, as the guy who made them the first time made them to small and one of them OUT OF ANGLE!!!:biting: A friend of mine who is a very good carpenter measured them yesterday, and will make them. Then I will attach the grill cloth and post pictures of the final result.Quote:
Originally Posted by riessen
Yes Zilch, I removed the JBL covering before re- veneering.
Ron
Hi all. Finally I got the new frames and got the dark JBL blue fabric on them. Got some questions to you DIY experts.
I noticed that the name plates are originally mounted (I have those, and want to attach them) almost on top of the 2405. Since JBL put them there, is the position ok or what?
Nest question: how do I, what do I use to attach the name plates?
Thank's for advice.
Here are some picks:
pretty amazing works,congrats
It's just a link and used for fun,dun be so gnawing:biting: and stop pecking me plzQuote:
Originally Posted by hjames
Like I said the last time -
(Voice of Obi-wan muskogee)
"Use the delete button, Luke ..."
Delete ALL of these Off-topic posts here
- no one likes a post whore ....
just take off ALL of your topic comments here ...
its really not hard to do.
OK,I deleated:bouncy:Quote:
Originally Posted by hjames
VERY fine looking speakers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
I've been reading back through the various 4343/4345 threads and I saw a post by Tom Loizeaux where he noticed the same thing. He said he heard a noticeable difference when he removed the metalized label-badge from its position on the grille.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...&postcount=141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Loizeaux
I guess most really don't care, unless the thread is written by some pros in DIY.
That is ok, I am happy with the result.
I used water based contact cement on my L212s to apply Ash Veneer, with only cutting the veneer an 1/4" larger, in both directions. I then lined up one long side of the veneer to the cabinet and then just laid it down, pushing across the width of the sheet at the middle of the sheet and working toward the edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf
Another way is to lay down a piece of wax paper on the side of the cabinet and then lay the veneer on top. Then raise up the veneer along one long edge and fold the wax paper(an inch or two) back over its self and press the veneer down along that edge.
Then you just have to lift up the opposite edge of the veneer and remove the entire piece of wax paper and flatten out the veneer, working from the middle out.