Comparisons

[Ducatista47]

Member L100t Owner has asked an interesting question on a marketplace thread. Since it belongs here, I will dare to start a general forum thread about it.

He asked, "How do they (4345's) compare to the 250ti (soundwise)."

Obviously apples and oranges, and I cannot answer since I know the Legendary 250 only by reputation. Could we possible have a civil discussion of how different speakers sound different from each other? This has nothing to do with what sounds "better" and involves no agendas other than the original question - except expanded to other speaker comparisons.

Given recent events, no need to explain the emphasis.

I would be very interested to know how a 4435 sounds different from a (insert name here). Or a 250ti vs. an 4345. Or believe it or not, some one might want to know (Not ME!), an L100 Century vs. a VOTT! Etc, etc, etc. You get the idea. The point here is, some members have heard a lot of speakers, some have not. While A/B comparisons are a nice luxury, most interested members do not have a listening room full of top tier JBL's, Altec's and who knows what.

The idea is to share your wonderful insights. The terms suck, walk all over, eat alive, wipe the floor with or any similar brain dead utterances have no part in this. More like "more (or less) balanced", "better bass clarity", "less transparent mids", "less crossover distortion", "better in a smaller room", "good classical music speaker", "total lack of low bass," etc., etc.

And yes, you know who (plural), it has been discussed many times over the years (probably most often when a speaker comes up on eBay and a new member asks what do they../are they better than...), but I don't think in one place or in this format. And not recently. Here is something that would help out the many, many newer members who were not around for the thousands of other posts in a thousand threads now long past, but want to know this information very much. Sure it is subjective as well as objective, but this is something most who visit this site would want to know. What do YOU hear/think? This topic is not in the Library or the JBL website.

Anyone game? I am dying to hear the insights of you fellow listeners and music lovers. Maybe we could begin with the original question, and take requests from there.

Clark in Peoria

[Ian Mackenzie]

You might refer this question to Greg Timbers (JBL).

[Don McRitchie]

I definitely suggest that no one ask Greg Timbers this question. I know from your response that you understand the reasons why, but it doesn't hurt for the benefit of the forum at large to state them explicitly. First, Greg was not involved in all of the speakers mentioned above and it would be asking him to comment on the competition as well. Second, and most importantly, this is not a reasonable request given his demonstrated limited ability to participate in this forum. Greg has generously provided his input on three occasions. However, the degree of his involvement and pace must be at his discretion. I can guarantee that direct solicitations for his input would very quickly reach a point where demand exceeds his available time. At that time he would rightfully conclude that this forum is a distraction that he cannot afford. I do not want to see that situation develop.

Back to your original question. I don't think that you will find many forum members that are anxious to take on this issue. You will not find a definitive assessment. You will find lots of opinions and a search of this forum should reveal opinions on just about all of the comparisons you mentioned. However, it is almost certain that any such discussion will end up in a pissing contest of one sort or another. For every weakness ascribed to a given system, defenders will arise to battle for their chosen system's honor. For every strength ascribed, contesters will arise to attempt to tear down that opinion. All too frequently, the discussion de-evolves to discredit the opinion holders and not just the opinions. Therefore, it is unlikely if many long term forum members, myself included, are eager to open that can of worms.

[Mr. Widget]

Aw shucks Don... I was getting ready to explain why headphones are the only way to enjoy... oh wrong thread.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Gee Don,

While I understand that sounded like a speech from Bush's press secretary right off the boot. "The answer to the question is you can't ask that question quote un quote"

What I was really implying (not in the literal sense) was that no one bar the designer would be able to accurately articulate the merits of each system in such terms of the system (drivers) capabilities... strengths and weaknesses that would prove meaningful and useful otherwise.

That as an explanation would as a principle be far more valuable to the general readeship than any amount of subjective discussion.

That was the gist of my post.

[Ducatista47]

Since Everyone, including myself, agrees this is such a bad idea, I have asked Don to nuke this thread. Everyone who has responded here has done so with good humor, but Don feels it would not remain so.

Maybe someone could go back to "Watch This Space" on the marketplace and explain to L100t Owner why I should have ignored his question. Apparently the sad fact is the membership could not be trusted to answer without starting a fight. As a stupid fellow who stupidly, I am now told, thinks the best of people and had outlined what I stupidly thought was a workable format to answer questions like L100t Owner's, I would probably give an answer too stupid to post.
I already killed my stupid response post, but the software here does not allow for the deletion of my post stupidly originating this thread.

Clark, hopefully the starter of no more threads.

[porschedpm]

Perhaps a more manageable and less volatile approach would be for members to list the JBLs they've spent some time with, ranked in the order of their preference, from highest preference to lowest. Altecs, and JBL DIY homegrown speakers could also be ranked. As an example here's what my preferences would look like:

-4343B (modified to 4344 spec)
-XPL200
-240Ti
-120Ti
-4412 and 4412A (tie)
-4312A
-DIY 4312A drivers in L100 Cabinet, with L100T crossover
-L65 Jubal
-L100
-18Ti

By just listing preferences, you're not opening up for discussion the reasons you believe a speaker sounds better than another. You're simply stating that you like speaker A over speaker B, and so on.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Michael Smith were are you?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Understood; But there have been too many JBL's and it would be too much work to list and rank them.
Frankly, it sounds like a homework assignment.
Sometimes I want to hear an 18Ti and sometimes I want to hear a 4355.

Actually the answer is in fine print on some of the sales literature.

Something to the effect that JBL Professional products are not intended for consumer household use followed by a dissclaimer about hearing damage.

Aside from the technology its a case of understanding the applications and why certain models on both the Consumer and Professional Series were made and designed a certain way.

That is your research assignment.

I good sale rep would never attempt to sell a product across applications unless the customer had special grounds for the decision. Of course a industrial/technical purchase decision is very different from a consumer purchase decision but we all know that.

All things being equal a recording engineer might prefer the professional monitor in the studio at work during a mix down of a live feed and the 250Ti for his listening to consumer mass market recorded music in his home.

What all the hubba is about I will never know.

[4313B]

I deleted my two posts following porchepdm's post and removed myself from this thread therefore any quoted passages are out of context.

Thanks Don!

[moldyoldy]

I know it's an unrealistic goal, but personally, I don't want my speakers to "sound like" anything, except the music that's served them. A little ditty I composed some time ago elaborates;

Just the Music, Please
(on plain, white toast, hold the mayo)


I went to see the Doc’ today,
To check on my condition.
I had to know if what I had
was real or superstition.

He beamed his light in both my ears,
(it didn’t shine clear through)
And after several other tests,
claimed nothing he could do.

“What seems to be the problem?”
he asked with furrowed brow.
“You seem to be in perfect health,
At least, that is, for now.”

So I explained
just what had pained
my conscience for so long:

“I can’t hear my stereo!
There must be something lacking.
I’ve checked the phase and time delays,
and even fine-tuned tracking.”

“Though everything works just like it should,
and music sounds just fine,
From what I’ve read, it seems there could
be something out of line.”

“They say I should hear ‘warmth’ and ‘tone’,
and lots of ‘sparkling highs’.
The bass that’s from my woofer cone
should smack me ‘tween the eyes.”

“They use a word I’ve never heard,
a thing called ‘tarentessa’.
And if my system’s lacking it,
it must be valued lessa.”

“I should hear colors, bold and bright,
like on the album jacket.
But if it got up ‘in-my-face’,
I think I’d have to smack it!”

The doctor grinned a wise man’s grin,
and offered me a chair.
He somehow seemed much younger
than the silver of his hair.

“My friend”, he said, “there’s nothing wrong
with your hearing or perception.
It seems you merely suffer from
some simple misdirection.”

“You see, at times, we all forget
that we can't really share
exactly what our senses feel
with others, here and there.”

“It’s just as hard to pen a sound,
as it is to hear a color,
Or taste the breeze that bends the trees,
to share it with another.”

So I resolved that I would try,
to listen more with my own ear,
and see with my own eye.

I’ve got some Allmans playing,
now that I’m off the clock.
It really does sound better,
Man, those guys could rock!

I feel a whole lot better now,
knowing nothing's wrong.
Not hearing what 'they' said I should,
only just the song.

[hapy._.face]

Moldy,

You rock!

[Ducatista47]

Since this mess in my fault, I will respond.

Don was correct on both counts. While he and I seem to be the only two LH members who thought someone might not see Ian's tongue in his cheek when he "suggested" asking Mr. Timbers, his alarm at the prospect is completely understandable and necessary. My fault, not Ian's, who's post is as usual hilarious and informative. Had I not responded so specifically, the fuse would never have been lit. Thus deleting the post.

More disappointing, and this is why I was stupid, is the reality that suggesting a few lame guidelines to control the level and type of discourse would not avoid the eventual catfight.

I think L100t Owner's - and my - question is legitimate. Comparing the sound of two good speakers when you can't hear both does beg an answer. Only a relative few members have heard way more than their fair share of speakers. It is a poor substitute to describe a sound, but members with experience and language skills could get an inexperienced member like myself in the ballpark. The sad, sad fact seems to be that when it is stated that someone hears a warmer mid bass from one speaker than another, some member will eventually take offense, as if it were a competetion and one must win and one must lose.

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people, it has been said, but I assumed a wonderful community like this would be an exception, and I still think it is for the most part. But was I stupid to assume that? Don thinks so, and I will not argue with Don, period. Ever.

I don't ever want to argue with anyone. I am a man of peace.

I would like to think I am ignorant, not stupid, but in this case I seem to be some of both. I'm sorry, Don.

Clark in Mortville, for you John Waters fans.

[johnaec]

Sheesh, Clark - you're taking this stuff way too seriously. I've really noticed that from a lot of members lately. This should just be a nice place to check in, like an afternoon at a golf club or something...

John

[Ducatista47]

That done, Porschedpm's idea seems workable, even if some think it is homeworkable. It doesn't address the original question directly, but it is not far off.

Mine will be the easiest and most obvious list of all. If this order starts a fight, I really do quit.

Descending order of quality of sound (to my brain), which is what matters to me:

4345
4333
Control 10
JBL Platinum Series

I gave away the Allisons.

Peace, Clark