A Forum Membership Fee

[JBLRaiser]

I've noticed, and I'll re-iterate...

Most all of the forums I've visited include some sort of paid advertising. Either a "vendors" section or banner ad links or such.

I don't know what arrangement Don has with Harman, but couldn't it be possible that if Don were to start making a profit, the Harman attorney's might come calling asking for their share?...or cease and desist.

This is a manufacturer-specific site that covers current product too, and that could lead to Harman wanting control of everything....intellectual property.... including revenue.

Any thoughts on this, or am I way off-base?

Here come the replies....

Yet, to what good would a 'cease and desist' order gain? Bad publicity at the very least. This is a community, where we are attempting to protect our forum from unwanted intruders, make life as pleasant as possible for those who volunteer their time and services and lastly to offer a vintage JBL source for the world to access.. What income this site would generate if garnered by Harman, would be offset by the community uproar if it ever came to that. It would seem reasonable that Harman would want this site to flourish whatever shape it must take. But, as my Dad used to tell me, 'assume nothing'.

[mwaldron]

The other value added forums that I participate in have varying levels of membership ranging from free to lifetime. These different levels grant varying levels of privileges.

Free members can read posts as guests.
Active members (nominal annual fee/donation) involved can post and perform basic thread searches.
Lifers are granted full access to all site features and archives.

I just discovered LH recently as I embark upon accumulating components to build my dream system. First knock out of the box all
I see is that “0” posters are going to get deleted, hum I say to myself how do I avoid getting deleted, it’ll probably be six months or so before I am brave enough to stick my toe in this talent pool. Money, yeah that’s the ticket I’ll become a “paid-up” subscriber; they’ll never delete me then.

Oh wait money isn’t the answer, some of the regulars think this isn’t a financial issue (sorry that’s BS it costs money to do this stuff, at this level)

Yes this is my first post, I’m a contributing member, please moderate my post, limit my access, what ever we needed to keep this afloat at the quality that it is and don’t delete me out of convenience.

Presumptuous first post huh, I apologize in advance but this is a cool place, with cool things happening, and I just found it! I don’t want to lose it already for lack of trying.

mw

[JBLRaiser]

Not that the question (or my answer) is germane to this discussion but....
There are lots of collectors out there. Some of you collect Paragons, others collect L100s. I've owned JBLs longer than I've owned BMW's and I no longer have my first BMW, but I do have my first JBL. Not that is is of any importance to this thread, but our family's daily driver fleet consists of a 170,000-mile '98 318ti (love the fuel economy), a 230,000-mile '87 535is, a 125,000-mile 1995 525i 5sp, and a 200,000-mile '91 Plymouth Voyager that Heather's seen live and in person. None of those BMWs cost me over $5500. True enough, I own twenty BMWs, in various states of condition, including five convertibles models from 1958 to 1970, none of which cost me more than the most expensive daily driver and most of which we've owned for twenty-years or more. My newest motorcycle is over 25-years-old and the most expensive of those cost me $2500. One man's p*ss is another man's porridge!

Collector? Sure. Wealthy just because I own a BMW, or JBLs, or Crown amps? Not hardly. I also work sound reinforcement jobs on the side for chump change just to feed my hobbies. The income from my "real" job goes to pay for my kids' education. Certainly $25/year won't make a dent in my educational expenses, but if the point is truly to discourage spammers and pirates, then I still believe $25 is more than necessary for that purpose. Those who want to donate above and beyond are always welcome to do so voluntarily. And I will, too, as I have done for other sites I derive benefit and/or entertainment from.

I believe you're discussing two different issues here. One is how to quash the sp*ammers. The other is how to fund this site. One solution may do both but don't confuse the issues or assume a financial status for others in which you may be fortunate enough to find yourselves. Since it was my suggestion to have a new member's first post fall under moderation (not the first time I've suggested it), and that seems to have garnered support from others here, I'd love to hear from the revered (and I mean that sincerely) Mods as to how such an idea might be administered given this site's format and architecture. Enough about Marxian economics. I enjoy my cheap JBLs at least as much as you fortunate ones enjoy yours...maybe even that much more!

I misunderstood. Thought you were singing the stash rich, cash poor blues. A fee will help to weed out the spammers. It will cost them each time they post and we will appreciate this service even more than we already do. I vote a fee.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Once a membership fee is charged, the site now becomes a business for the owner.

That opens up a whole new set of beauracracy that will need to be reported to the IRS.

That question should be up to Don to answer.

Of course it could open up new revenue streams by selling ad space, etc. like ProSoundWeb and AudioKarma....but would the revenue be sufficient to warrant the PITA of keeping detailed business records, filing fictitious business statements, paying business taxes and fees....et.al?

There are something like 20 or less active posters.

The forum would disappear if a fee were charged. The best way to kill a hobbyist forum is to charge a membership fee.

It would lose the battle for discretionary income.

Edge,

I think it already is ( a non profit business) in a sense as there is money in the coffers and a treasurer.

Not meaning to sound back handed but donations and membership fee are two very different things. You can donate to a hospital or a political party and you can have a membership fee or a subscription to a service or become a member of an association or a club.

I am not sure how that can be easily defined as funds would be used for maintaining forum software and projects like Project May in this situation.

On that score if a forum is deemed to have club organisational entity or other type of entity a lot would need to change. If the former there needs registration and set of articles of association or a constitution like any other club that all members vote and agree too. (it would by necessity become democratic and this is legally the case in Australia).

I recall very early on there was simple choice of allowing lurkers or vistors to view and then register or register and then view. If that latter was arrange for at least the non reference in the library areas and filters were set up for certain types of post data it would eliminate a lot of spam

Spamming and membership (fee) are two different issues.

Jason over at diyaudio.com seems to have a working model for funding the site.

[sourceoneaudio]

Enable the post reporting function. Members can make the moderators' task easier using that.

20 reports on a post, and it's likely to be spam.

[Or Storm behavin' badly.... ]

Or the relentless non learning about how big of P.O.S. the T-35 is!!!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...45&postcount=5
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...72&postcount=7

J/S-S1A

[Rolf]

First I like to say that I am willing to pay a fee to get access to this site, as long as the fee is not to high. $25 max, $10 might be the right amount a year.

I would do it, because I have been a member a long time, know this site, but I believe most newcomers will never be members, and the site will probably loose some people that should be here.

BUT: A word of warning.

Now there might be a site fee. Next maybe a moderator fee. Then maybe a Teck fee. Then maybe a fee for each forum.

This must not be allowed to happen.

Another thing is that if a fee should be charged at all the "fun" must be brought back to this site. You all know what I mean.

[JBLRaiser]

First I like to say that I am willing to pay a fee to get access to this site, as long as the fee is not to high. $25 max, $10 might be the right amount a year.

I would do it, because I have been a member a long time, know this site, but I believe most newcomers will never be members, and the site will probably loose some people that should be here.

BUT: A word of warning.

Now there might be a site fee. Next maybe a moderator fee. Then maybe a Teck fee. Then maybe a fee for each forum.

This must not be allowed to happen.

Another thing is that if a fee should be charged at all the "fun" must be brought back to this site. You all know what I mean.

This site is addictive. Once you stay here for awhile, you become interested in the different audio topics and brings you back again and again. You know how many of us posted on the OT and did less posting in audio sections because of it. Even if it is just an audio question, many times new knowledge is learned from just asking. Sometimes a question may trigger some knowledge you have that helps someone else. The past is past and we must move on. Beside, the neocons were kicking the neocrats arse's and that had to stop.

[SEAWOLF97]

All the replies have been tactical, not strategic...

The forum would not be a "non profit charity" . Someone will have to declare the income and most likely kick himself up into another tax bracket.

The treasurer is going to have fun. Unhappy members ...do they get refunds ? What are the new liabilities now that its "for profit" ?

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The mods are fighting spammers in an "old manual mode" . Darned near every site on the web has mail back verification. Cant be that hard ?

Whats to keep a spammer from paying the dues and then demanding a refund when his posts are deleted ? Lawsuits ? yes , even over a small fee. It happens.

You guys are opening up a whole can of worms here, that Don, NOT YOU, will have to deal with. Think out the ramifications before you leap.

[hjames]

Nah - you make a folks click through a membership agreement that includes the statement that off topic ad posts, in this agreement to be considered as SPAM, will not be tolerated and the associated member will loose membership rights and forfeit any funds paid to the website.

Its not hard to write anti spammer rules, once they don't get a free entry to the site.

Whats to keep a spammer from paying the dues and then demanding a refund when his posts are deleted ?
Lawsuits ? yes , even over a small fee. It happens.

You guys are opening up a whole can of worms here, that Don, NOT YOU, will have to deal with. Think out the ramifications before you leap.

[jim campbell]

I have to say something. It really riles me to no end to see anyone scoff at the idea of 10 bucks, or even 25 bucks a years dues fee.

Where can you go, and get the kind of info you get here for any price, let alone for free?

What exists on this site, xover tuning tricks, cabinet tuning, and alignment methods, driver selection for optimal results, youll not get from anyone like you get here.

You know what? My time as a moderator is donated! What is my time worth? Policing the site is time consuming, and I do it for free. So do the other mods, therefore, anything that allows me my time to not have to follow the spammers around and constantly dump chumps is worthwhile to me!

Or would you rather a site where you open a thread, and see a pornographic picture?

Ultimately, however, the final decision on whether or not to charge membership dues are not up to me, I merely make my suggestions.

If spam werent a problem we wouldnt be having this discussion at all, but, spam has become a problem. And its a problem that requires peoples time to eliminate the garbage from piling up on the site.

People, any of you that sell on eBay pay a FEE to sell your wares on ebay,so, if we did charge a nominal membership fee, whats the problem? It isnt like we would be looking for $500/yr!

if spam is the problem lets bill them.ten or twenty bucks aint going to break the bank but im getting tired of having to foot to the bill for the bad behaviour of others.

[Baron030]

Quoted by Rolf:

First I like to say that I am willing to pay a fee to get access to this site, as long as the fee is not too high. $25 max, $10 might be the right amount a year.

I would do it, because I have been a member a long time, know this site, but I believe most newcomers will never be members, and the site will probably loose some people that should be here.

Rolf's comment touches a nerve here. When I made my first posting back on 4/13/2005, no one responded to my question for nearly 3 months. And when I finally did get some responses, not all of them appeared to be friendly. So, as a newcomer, I was not sure what to make of this site. If I had been hit up for money every time I visited this site two years ago, then I would not be a paying member now. It takes time to get to know this site and to truly see its benefits. So, Rolf's point about, "the site will probably loose some people that should be here", is absolutely true. Personally, I would rather make donations rather then pay fees. But, if we do decide to go with some kind of annual fees or dues, then $10 to $25 a year sounds about right to me.

Baron030

[SMKSoundPro]

$32.50/year.

"Hey brother, can you spare a dime" (a day.)

Scott.

I have always been willing to put my money where my mouth is. I plan to donate my Alaska Permanent Dividend check into the donation pot to help wih Project May. Sounds like GRAND cause.

PS. I am the president of a 501C3 non-profit corp and we have membership dues, pull-tab games and give away college scholarships to needy Alaskans. Setting up a non-profit social organization, such as the Moose or Elk's lodge, is not tough to do, and in my short time here, consider almost all of you brothers and sister(HJ.) We were to fly to JackGiff's home for the comparo just to meet like-minded individuals. We're not amway dealers, or anything like that...just good folk looking for like-minded speaker doods & dude-ettes(HJ) to converse with and learn and share the collective knowledge.

[sourceoneaudio]

$32.50/year.

"Hey brother, can you spare a dime" (a day.)

Scott.

I have always been willing to put my money where my mouth is. I plan to donate my Alaska Permanent Dividend check into the donation pot to help wih Project May. Sounds like GRAND cause.

PS. I am the president of a 501C3 non-profit corp and we have membership dues, pull-tab games and give away college scholarships to needy Alaskans. Setting up a non-profit social organization, such as the Moose or Elk's lodge, is not tough to do, and in my short time here, consider almost all of you brothers and sister(HJ.) We were to fly to JackGiff's home for the comparo just to meet like-minded individuals. We're not amway dealers, or anything like that...just good folk looking for like-minded speaker doods & dude-ettes(HJ) to converse with and learn and share the collective knowledge.

J/S-S1A

[lfh]

What about the following strategy:

1. Newbies are restricted to a dedicated "Hello, world" forum.
2. Newbies are requested to apply for a full membership in said forum.
3. The application must loosely follow a certain protocol (e.g. "the reasons I'd like to join / my first encounter with JBL / my favourite model / current collection / planned project / ...")
4. The community gives approval by means of a simple one-click action.
5. A certain number of OK:s is required to obtain membership.
6. The OK:s are weighted according to voter membership status: E.g. only one "moderator click" is needed or two ">100-post member clicks" or...

This would:

a. share the burden of screening new users
b. isolate potential XXX Viagra-style firsts post to a specific place
c. put reasonable demands on newcomers (also "money poor" ones)

Of course crook newbies could copy old applications, but doing this (in an non-obvious way) is probably already too much hassle for "drive by spammers". We as a community could also be careful: When in doubt, post a follow up question before clicking OK.

Just an idea. (I don't know how technically complicated this would be to implement, but I'd be glad to donate to help making it happen.)

Fredrik

[JBLRaiser]

All the replies have been tactical, not strategic...

The forum would not be a "non profit charity" . Someone will have to declare the income and most likely kick himself up into another tax bracket.

The treasurer is going to have fun. Unhappy members ...do they get refunds ? What are the new liabilities now that its "for profit" ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The mods are fighting spammers in an "old manual mode" . Darned near every site on the web has mail back verification. Cant be that hard ?

Whats to keep a spammer from paying the dues and then demanding a refund when his posts are deleted ? Lawsuits ? yes , even over a small fee. It happens.

You guys are opening up a whole can of worms here, that Don, NOT YOU, will have to deal with. Think out the ramifications before you leap.

we're all big boys and girls here. Write a user agreement and if it is breached, the offender is kicked. Simple as that. If legality is a big problem, you can always use www.legalzoom.com. No affiliation. Really...none. Also, a thought if we go the profit route,would be to take all profits after expenses and buy the finest honkin speakers that money can buy and do a drawing. This is just stream of consciousness stuff. Pick some or throw it all out. I can take it.