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Thread: Full Range Driver and Single Driver Speakers

  1. #16
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    Clark,

    I am not sure in what context i said that

    One think is for sure the smaller FRD's are best suited for particular genre's.

    But dont expect any FRD to be a robust as a JBL driver

  2. #17
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    How Loud?

    I have stirred debate here, unintentional for sure, by drifting and rambling through topics that seem to give lie to one of the first things I said in this thread, and that was short sighted of me. Like sound levels, listening preferences and experiences are relative to one another.

    When I said Full Range drivers, meaning used as the heart of a system or standing alone, were of no use for listeners who like it pretty darn loud, that was hard and fast. But what about those relative issues? Maybe I can clear the waters I have muddied myself.

    Ian correctly states that a Full Range driver will never be as robust as a JBL. In the realm of taking a licking and keeping on ticking (an old Timex watch ad, for those too young or located elsewhere), that is true for sure. When listening at the levels I do, either will last a long, long time – probably longer than us. Has anyone out there fried a voice coil with less than loud, given clean power and no extra toys like DC or dead shorts?

    I could break down listening levels into four or five categories for the sake of illustration. There is background music, never meant to be at the forefront of the sound present, at least not in the mind of the listener. I could say the non-listener, but that would be elitist. Then there are listeners enjoying music in their homes, with or without a party. Then there is playback monitoring for recording and mastering. At the loud end would be sound reinforcement, almost always in areas larger than rooms commonly found in private homes. That could go from lecture rooms to theaters and discos to outdoor venues. All these situations need speakers, but how different the demands placed on them are!

    It is in the second category, home listening with the music as the main focus of the activity, that we usually find a niche for Full Range drivers. The question is do we want concert level or not and if so the level of what kind of concert? Some possible answers to these questions will put us into the sound reinforcement field of equipment and eliminate Full Range from the possibilities. For instance, if the goal is to have concert level SPL’s listening to AC/DC Super 12’s would not be the tool for the job. Then again, my hearing is pretty sensitive, not from the hearing 19,000hz perspective but from the apparent loudness I hear, and I prefer to wear earplugs at concerts like that. (I sure wish I’d had them when I was stuck with three Pez Band sets in a small club.) The levels I remember hearing through the plugs seem within the Super 12’s grasp. I admit I am just not a 125dB man.

    But give me a live gig with a band that does not have everyone who was there and sober saying the next day that they were too loud, and I can do that. That would be amplified rock to a six piece Jazz combo going full tilt to of course recorder music. I have not tried them on Romantic era large orchestra recordings because I don’t enjoy large orchestras playing that stuff, so I can’t answer that one. They do sound very convincing playing a 66 piece, very noisy Jazz orchestra. I'm not saying the sound levels are the same as at my seat at the concert, but they are as loud as I am comfortable with at home. Any louder and I want to turn it down, and that seems reasonable.

    One thing they would not do well with is the frat party I mentioned. Dance music tends to be played much more loudly than music where we sit down and listen to it. It works on the body in general and the feet in particular, almost like the ears are just a means to the end of moving the body instead of the spirit. It is really not about listening. Again, I personally have no interest in this.

    Bottom line, I am a good candidate for the Super 12’s because of how I like to listen as much as what I listen to. Different strokes for different folks for sure. Do not, however equate Full Range with limpid sound levels and recordings. The Super 12’s are dynamic as all get out. They are not capable of insanely loud. While not being able to play nearly as loudly (max SPL - and remember JBL warns those levels are dangerous), they are as efficient as the biamped 4345’s. They will fill a reasonable sized listening room with great sound at volumes too loud for casual listeners. Like I said, I don’t listen in a closet, I turn it up until it sounds too loud if I turn it up any more, and it sounds like John Coltrane and his quartet are spread out right in front of me, playing live up close and personal. This is not for the faint of heart. Less than one watt powers them nicely, very nicely, and it takes in excess of seventy watts to fry them. That makes them, relatively, loud. And clear as a bell. Imaging is better than most people will ever hear.

    By the way, if a guest really wants more sub 40hz bass I turn on my sub. I'm no purist, I just like to listen to my music. A subwoofer doesn't muffle the Full Range magic at all.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  3. #18
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47 View Post
    By the way, if a guest really wants more sub 40hz bass I turn on my sub. I'm no purist, I just like to listen to my music. A subwoofer doesn't muffle the Full Range magic at all.
    Ah the bass... I was listening to a contemporary recording through my system the other night at a very moderate level, probably peaking at 85dB or so. It wasn't connecting for me. I figured I was tired and decided to pack it in. As I turned off the amps, I realized that the subwoofer amp hadn't been turned on. While it is subtle enough when it's on that I didn't notice it was off, especially at this lower volume, having the full spectrum reproduced does matter. After my discovery, I quickly turned everything back on and listened to a song with the full system running and all was right again.


    Widget

  4. #19
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    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/c/K...Fullrange.html

    This is a link to some properly engineered full range kits.

    Cut it and slice it any way you like..there is a market.

    If you look at the concept of the helper woofer and understand the engineering considerations of a very low mass cone and a very delicate VC its make a lot of sense.

    Seas make a very good driver with a concentrically mounted tweeter in the main pole piece.

    If you did your home work and added a sutable woofer with an electronic crossover it might be termed a poor mans Tad R1.

    I dont think blowing you head off with alot of power and serious cone area has not got a lot to do with high fidelity sound reproduction. Most of the time they are doing it because they are not getting the detail and resolving power at lower levels so the brain says make it louder so I can hear it.

    What they dont know is most of that really important information is contained in the First Watt and people of becoming aware of that with the resurgence if small but very high quality amplifiers

    What I am saying is with some nous there are work arounds for the apparent limtiations of these types of drivers. There are some interesting methods like this design that approaches a line array are low frequencies and converges to a point source at high frequencies

    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/V-5941/Quadro

    in tumultuous orchestral bursts the QUADRO was firmly in control. (...) VISATON's QUADRO cuts an impressive figure both acoustically and visually, it loves dynamic input and will forever remind its owner how pleased he can be that he did not buy his speakers from a department store


    Here is another interesting approach:

    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/V-5988/Solitude

    This speaker can cope with volume, has good bass response, is an unbelievably homogeneous loudspeaker with powerful all-round capabilities and a musical talent all of its own. The Solitude is technically and from a sound point of view light-years away from the fluffy mush produced by so many boring three-way boxes.

    If I could afford it I would buy a pair of Feastrex drivers tomorrow.

    http://www.feastrex.com/d9xfamily.html#

    They are literally hand made and some of their design and manufacturing techniques rival that of JBL and Tad. At a cool $6000 a pair they are by a long shot the best true single full range driver currently in production. The 9nf weighs 8.5 Kg! The field coil drivers are way more expensive.

    JBL no longer made a full range driver like the LE8T so there is probably very limited appeal for those who are in awe of big drivers and big boxes.

    We all have a reasons and preferences..there is no best way

    Ian

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    If I could afford it I would buy a pair of Feastrex drivers tomorrow.

    http://www.feastrex.com/d9xfamily.html#
    "With the field coil drivers, changing the power supply can affect the sound just as much as changing the amplifier. Varying the voltage applied to the field coil can also have a huge effect on the sound by changing the damping of the driver, allowing the user to achieve a wide range of effects with every type of enclosure from horn to open baffle. The user can obtain a huge degree of freedom in creating his own sound."

    That sounds like a variable nightmare to me... you may be able to really dial in a system, but since most people can't even set up a graphic equalizer properly, I can imagine some pretty frustrated audiophiles.

    I am sure they are well built and they certainly are purdy.

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  6. #21
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    I would imagine that to be a very useful means of modifying the driver characteristic. The alternative for fixed magnet design is a Current Source type amplifier as done by Nelson Pass.

    Obviously some technicial understanding is required but the relevent forums for these types of drivers are better supported than the likes of what we see around here.

    Of course if you cannot afford any of this there is no need to get too excited.

    ian

  7. #22
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    So What Doesn't Need A sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Ah the bass... I was listening to a contemporary recording through my system the other night at a very moderate level, probably peaking at 85dB or so. It wasn't connecting for me. I figured I was tired and decided to pack it in. As I turned off the amps, I realized that the subwoofer amp hadn't been turned on. While it is subtle enough when it's on that I didn't notice it was off, especially at this lower volume, having the full spectrum reproduced does matter. After my discovery, I quickly turned everything back on and listened to a song with the full system running and all was right again.
    Widget
    Widget, I was surprised that your main system would need a subwoofer for music. Am I correct in assuming that the "contemporary recording" contained synthetic bass tones, or perhaps a well recorded stand up bass or grand piano?

    I remember some time back you and I being on the same page about large monitors not needing a sub for playing music (as opposed to home theater use). I may be behind the times, but the systems you mess around with are usually more than capable in the bass department. I do find this fascinating, though.

    I know what you mean about the very bottom being subtle but important. I do actually tend to leave my little sub auto on - it comes on when my main amp gives it signal and goes to sleep after a while with no activity. Super 12's are strong to 45hz, so the 10" sub takes it from about 42 on down. It is turned down about as far as it can be and still make noise. I can't hear it directly so much as notice a difference. It doesn't hurt the imaging as tones that low tend to lack source direction. The 4345's, on the other hand, are flat to 30hz where I cut them off as JBL suggests. Since I don't feel I'm missing something there without a sub, perhaps it is from 28 or 30hz to wherever a system gets weak that matters.

    Maybe it is not only Full Range that needs "helper woofers?" Maybe it takes a 2245H to get a pass? If bass is king to that extent, I see why JBL has ruled bottom end for so long. Not a bad strategy.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  8. #23
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Ian, those are interesting systems. Having kits available may be an idea who's time has come.

    I notice all the drivers are 20 to 22cm, about 8 inch. The Feastrex cones look very much like Lowther cones, probably not a coincidence. One great thing about six and eight inch Full Range drivers is their really superior imaging when not mated to horns, like in the Omega line. They image even more sharply than the (12 inch) Super 12's, which are already great that way. Closer to a point source, I guess. It is true that the stereo effect we rely on is not really the same as the incredibly complex mixing of the sources in a live room impinging on our two ears, but it works for me when the soundstage is this good. Unfortunately, the eight inch drivers need bass help at higher frequencies and that bass may be a bit directional, softening the imaging a bit.

    I also notice all the 8 inch drivers have tiny 1 inch voice coils. The Super 12 has a 2 inch. I suppose JBL would use a 3 inch for a light 12 inch cone. The LE8T used a 2 inch and a huge magnet, typical JBL.

    Steve Schell has said he doesn't use the field variability as he is employing horn systems, but I bet he knows a fair amount about it or knows someone who does. Perhaps he might be able to chime in here. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...5&postcount=13

    Great observations and links, Ian!

    About Nelson Pass's current source amps, I would love to have the time and money to build a First Watt F2. Maybe someday. It is one solid state amp I am really curious about, being designed (like the F1) specifically for Full Range. I think the F1 would be beyond me, and perhaps too unforgiving of sources and front ends.
    http://www.firstwatt.com/products/f2.htm
    http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads/f2_om.pdf
    http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads/F...-manual-sm.pdf

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  9. #24
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47 View Post
    Widget, I was surprised that your main system would need a subwoofer for music.
    My system is sorta kinda like a 4345 except instead of having a 2245 come in at 290Hz I have a Sub1500 come in at ~50Hz... my point was that many full range systems don't really do much below 40 or 50Hz... and you can get used to that. I just find it missing... especially on newer recordings.

    Widget

  10. #25
    Senior Member Tom Brennan's Avatar
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    A pal of mine plays around quite a bit with single drivers but always augmented with subs. Some sounded pretty good and some wretched, like with any other approach I reckon. He often uses simple cardboard open baffles.




    The best single drivers I've heard were Fostex FX-200s. But they're no longer made. I've heard some pretty good Lowthers too.

  11. #26
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post
    He often uses simple cardboard open baffles.
    It's good to see he is using the correct type of cardboard.


    Widget

  12. #27
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Some Nelson Pass Links

    If this thread is of interest, the first six or so pages of this paper may make good reading:http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads/cs-amps-speakers.pdf

    A sample: "Most interesting are the full-range high-efficiency drivers that deliver the goods with only a watt or so. It’s a big design challenge to produce a good sounding full-range acoustic
    transducer with 100dB/watt efficiency. When it is properly achieved, you get a wealth of
    detail, exceptional dynamic range and a sense of musical “liveness” that you don’t often hear
    elsewhere."

    This one is also good:http://www.firstwatt.com/downloads/c...r-networks.pdf

    I can't help but think that these current source ideas may have wider application for high efficiency drivers with light cones and voice coils, no matter what they are called. JBL has specialized over the years in powerful motors and precise gaps. Perhaps voltage source amplification is not the best way to drive them.

    If these look interesting, here is the source page of these and other articles. Notice Phase Coherent Crossover Networks. http://www.firstwatt.com/articles.htm

    This entire field has finesse written all over it. I know a lot of us drift towards finesse reproduction as we get older and more experienced.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  13. #28
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Senseless musings on JBL high efficiency cones

    In the last post I alluded to JBL's basic motor design being well suited to high efficiency in general and full range in particular. OK, it was between the lines but I was thinking it. The reason why it is senseless to speculate about this is that a new cottage industry would have to form to bring it to fruition. I believe many eight, ten and twelve inch motors would make great full range drivers, but coil/cone assemblies would be required to complete the speakers and they don't exist. This would require an after market entrepreneur, like John Wyckoff was, or someone who could produce cones themselves.

    There are numerous reasons why this would be a good idea.

    * What happens to nice old JBL drivers when their surrounds rot away, or their cones or voice coils are damaged or old and tired? We all know a recone is a better answer than than a re-surround. We also know that a motor can be reconed with a different cone to make it essentially a different speaker. If the cones were available, these excellent motors could become something else entirely, like for instance a high quality, sensitive full range driver. High quality design and construction, powerful magnetic assemblies and precise gaps are needed for this. If this isn't JBL I don't know what is.

    * JBL cores are not expensive because the seller knows how expensive a full recone is. I can buy 2245H cores anytime I look. I paid $90 last time and that was high. Perhaps smaller cores would be even less.

    * The older designs that the more senior members here keep reminding us are not as good as the new stuff would be at no disadvantage here. Cooling a watt or two needs no technology, and all the improvements to combat power compression, the danger of demaging Alnico, and the like are not needed. Anything designed this well will be pretty linear at these power levels.

    * The cast frames are overkill for a speaker that usually plays at a watt or less, but they are a nice touch and frankly we are the sort of people who appreciate this kind of engineering for its own sake. This attention to detail guarantees the needed precision and the quality of the entire piece.

    * With pleated surrounds and a diet of low wattage drive to look forward to, the initial cone jobs will last a lifetime and then some.

    * Hemp cones are now available. I keep reading how they are an improvement in almost every way. A new cone design could use hemp.

    * Someone out there is already making a product similar to this, so it could be outsourced. (Hasn't JBL outsourced this, like forever now?) Omega probably does not make their own full range hemp cones. Someone does. That means low production numbers are economically feasible.

    * It seems the days are numbered for factory JBL cone kits. I can't stand the thought of these ending up as paperweights (well, doorstops and pressing weights for woodworking) or in landfills.

    * Our favorite JBL motors could be driven by today's super high fidelity tiny amps, like triode designs or the Nelson Pass First Watt offerings.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


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