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Thread: 4430 l-pads

  1. #46
    Webmaster Don McRitchie's Avatar
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    Here's some background on JBL compression driver and diaphragm evolution. There is more detail here:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...logy/435be.htm

    From the very first JBL compression driver of 1948 (the D175), until 1980, there was no change in the basic engineering of JBL's small format compression drivers. They all used an Alnico motor with an aluminum diaphragm and tangential surround. 1980 saw the first major change with the development of the diamond surround. While still constructing the diaphragm out of aluminum, the surround was pressed into a series of diamond shaped polygons. The reason for this was to increase the HF extension by taking advantage of a phenomenon known as parasitic resonance. The smaller diamond polygons increase the second resonance to the point that it reinforces HF response in the highest audible octave. This was primarily intended for the large format 375/2440, which otherwise was restricted in response to 10khz. Using parasitic resonance, extension could be pushed to 18khz and eliminate the need for three-way systems in most pro applications. While the small format compression drivers were in less need of this HF boost, they were found to benefit as well and they were converted to diamond surrounds at the same time.

    However, there was a penalty to be paid for this change that did not become fully apparent until a high profile incident in 1982. The problem was that the diamond peaks concentrated stresses to a much greater degree than the previous tangential geometry. The stress concentration led to premature failures of the diaphragms. The incident in question was the premier of the brand new JBL installation at the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences theatre. It was considered quite a coup for JBL to replace the old Altec sound system with their then state-of-the-art cinema system (for which JBL would later win an Academy Technical Award). However, during the premiere, the diaphragms on nearly all of the 2441’s failed. As a result, an edict was issued from on high at JBL to immediately fix this issue. Six months later, the result was the titanium diaphragm.

    Titanium is an order of magnitude more resistant to fatigue failure. The diamond surrounds, with their increased HF response, could still be employed, but power handling was increased by 30% with greatly increased longevity. Nonetheless, there were tradeoffs involved. As Giskard stated, titanium has poorer internal damping than aluminum. Further, titanium has reduced stiffness meaning that it is driven to breakup at a lower frequency than aluminum. The net result is increased distortion. This increase is relatively miniscule, but many listeners find it audible in critical applications like monitoring or home hi-fi.

    For this reason, JBL has reverted to aluminum and introduced beryllium diaphragms on their latest compression drivers. The use of a composite mylar surround has solved the fatigue problem. The use of beryllium has solved the diaphragm breakup issue so that these drivers have the lowest levels of distortion of any compression driver yet built by JBL. The smaller diaphrams (3" vs 4") of these newer drivers furhter pushes the frequency of breakup modes and increases overall HF response. Finally, applying EQ allowed these drivers to have the same UHF extension without the need for parasitic resonance and its attendent distortion.
    Regards

    Don McRitchie

  2. #47
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    As for the remagnetization - JBL service has always recommended such to me when an older driver is sent in for repair and I've followed their advice.

    Maybe I'm too conservative, but so much of my life is dealing with electrical and electronic failures as to make me a strong Murphy adherent.

    http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-true.html

    John
    Last edited by John Nebel; 07-26-2004 at 12:39 PM.

  3. #48
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    Fantastic information as usual Don.

    *****

    "This increase is relatively miniscule, but many listeners find it audible in critical applications like monitoring or home hi-fi."

    Back when I bought my personal pair of 4430's it was suggested by JBL that I buy the 2421A instead of the 2425H for Home use (even though "JBL Professional Products are not intended for Home use" and JBL has little sympathy for individuals who insist on running Pro gear at home). For several days I A/B'd the "2421A" 4430's against the "2425H" 4430's and could not discern the sonic superiority of the aluminums. I chose the 2425H's. At the time, all I had was Crown gear (considered only slightly better than a direct AC outlet dump at the time, perfectly adequate for Pro use but utterly pathetic for Home use). It wasn't until I got a Citation XX hooked up to the 4430's that I was able to appreciate the difference aluminum could make. Today I run the aluminum diaphragms in the 2425H cores. Ultimately though, do I really care? No. I could pop the titaniums back in and live a happy life.
    Last edited by 4313B; 07-26-2004 at 01:09 PM.

  4. #49
    Figge
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    to Giskard: yes i tested both. and one was wrong!

    i found two 2425:s with "new" as in (not used since he bought them) alu diaphragms still in theyr boxes! on an add i maild up the guy and he wants 234 bucks. should i jump at them? seem like a killer price!

  5. #50
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    Originally posted by John Nebel
    As for the remagnetization - JBL service has always recommended such to me when an older driver is sent in for repair and I've followed their advice.
    Yeah, I just do the remag and worry about other stuff instead. Mr. Widget is probably right but why refuse a remag if it's offered as a service.
    Originally posted by Figge
    to Giskard: yes i tested both. and one was wrong!

    i found two 2425:s with "new" as in (not used since he bought them) alu diaphragms still in theyr boxes! on an add i maild up the guy and he wants 234 bucks. should i jump at them? seem like a killer price!
    Good. So what wiring scheme did you end up with? The terminal with the dot going to which spring loaded post?

    The 2425 doesn't come stock with the aluminum diaphragm.
    Last edited by 4313B; 07-26-2004 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #51
    Figge
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    Originally posted by Giskard
    Good. So what wiring scheme did you end up with? The terminal with the dot going to which spring loaded post?
    red wire on the "dot"! is this "normal"?


    The 2425 doesn't come stock with the aluminum diaphragm
    i know. he had bought the drivers onceupon a time with crappy diaphragms in them. and had two new in box alu lying around so he threw em in! tested and decieded to go with 2" instead for som big Fostexhorn he had!

    i guess there are no sonical diffrent between the 2421 and 2425 cores?
    Last edited by Figge; 07-26-2004 at 01:29 PM.

  7. #52
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Bottom line?

    Originally posted by Figge
    to Giskard: yes i tested both. and one was wrong!
    It sounds like you've found and fixed the problem, a phase reversal. Hook 'em back up and enjoy!

    [Unless you just HAVE to experiment some more, of course.... ]

  8. #53
    Figge
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    i love experimenting.....well aslong as it gives results anyway

  9. #54
    Senior Señor boputnam's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Figge
    one of the drivers had black wire on the marking and the other one had red wire there!. shouldnt they be wired the same way?
    I can not believe it! A polarity quiz and I slept through it...

    Giskard got it right, and for all, the black mark on JBL diaphrams, from my testing, should be wired Red. That is somehow JBL's logic to denote both the "negative" side of the diaphragm and the position of the Red lead.

    Dang it, missed the whole thing. Dang it...
    Last edited by boputnam; 07-26-2004 at 05:03 PM.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  10. #55
    Figge
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    hi bo!

    no worries!

    strange tough this is the second pair of jbl:s ive had with wrong wierin´! my 4311:s had swaped cables on one woofer! and now this....

    well listned to them to day and yea! sound good, but not so big diffrens i would have thought! (might have been that the cables were switched on that driver to compensate the wrong inside it) cant remember how that horn was wired. i didnt look just unhooked it, since it was the second speaker i worked on.

    and now its obvious: the 2344 is doing something funny to the room, sertain frequences in the mids becomes boosted(not much) .this is where i work with speaker placements and roomreflections?. problem is the speakers cant be moved they gotta stand where they are.

    as for room reflections: i just wouldnt be a popular guy here if started with damping the livingroom.

    is this where the eq comes in?

    as u can see the placing is not very good!...the room aint very good eather!

    Windows! not good!
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    Last edited by Figge; 07-27-2004 at 02:00 AM.

  11. #56
    Figge
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    uh oh!! doorway!

    grilles are off couse our damn cat is walking by here in the doorway thinking its claws are not as sharp as they should be, so he looks at the grilles and start out sharpening em! now he does it on the sofa....who cares?
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    Last edited by Figge; 07-27-2004 at 02:38 AM.

  12. #57
    Figge
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    listening position! not very high waf as it is personaly i dont care how it looks. i´ll leave that up to the gal...
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    Last edited by Figge; 07-27-2004 at 02:20 AM.

  13. #58
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    I would buy one of those audio check out CD's with phase tests L + R check OR with the rear terminal polarity reversed red and black. This assumes you are convinced horns are now in identical phase and also in absolute phase with the woofers.

    If the image is centre b/n the speakers and not pressured in both ears at least they are setup okay.

    Your room has plenty of reflective surfaces and with the 100 x 100 dispersion of the horns there will be some odd response characteristics.

    "IF " you can put a throw rug (a nice expensive persian rug) immediately in front of the speakers it will damp some of the early reflections. Furniture in ther vacinity of the listening position will also improve the subjective evaluation. I doubt if an equaliser will help much.

    Ian

  14. #59
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    Hey Figge, when I first got my 4430's, I positioned them in front of my large 43XX's that were already about 5-6' from the rear wall. I had wierd stuff happening too.

    Once I moved the "big guys" out and replaced them with the 4430's in the same location, things improved considerably. They definitely liked to have some space around them, I was surprised that they were sensitive to objects behind them. May have been a consequence of the room, furniture placement, etc.

    You might try an experiment by moving them forward, away from the back wall, into the room and see how they perform.

    BTW; I have yet to open and examine the drivers and wiring inside my 4430's, they are put away for a while until I am finished dabbling with the 43XX's. I'll let you know if see anything odd with mine.

    I think mine will need diaphragms too, as the midrange resolution and definition does not come close to a 2441/2311/2308 based system. Also there is a noticable lack of HF apparent.

  15. #60
    Figge
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    hi chas! as u say they like some workingspace!

    i moved them about a meter out in the room and i put some BIG pillows in front of them...and wow! i could play much higher without the horns hurting my ears! a more detailed sound over all! but the bass punch did become nonexisting! however the deepest bass improved!


    i then placed them back as before and pushed them in flat agaist the wall! this was allso better than before. i think that doorway is not helping me here!

    gotta talk the gouvernment into replacing the furnituring in the whole room. so i get the speakers onto the opposite wall! there it dont matter if the speakers stands in the middle of the floor.
    however i dont think this will take only one "romantic" dinner out!!

    plan B: is to move down in the basement! there is a room about the same size not used down there...its concrete ofcourse but with wood ribs allover and small windows up near the cealing.... down there i can do whatever i want!

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