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Thread: 4343 crossover modifications

  1. #91
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    Its strange I agree the way the netwok is all pass the hf and Uhf via the 52uf capacitor.

    I doubt the reason was voltage of the capacitors, as in bi amp mode the 52 is bypassed the if that were the case it would be worst.

    However, it could be an attempt to provide overall uniform group delay to the whole Mid, hf and uhf drivers.

    They might have also found an anomally with the overall phase response and felt it was better to keep consistency.

    The mid transition 2nd orderer filter of the 4343 is mistuned to minimise mutual coupling of the 2121/2231 and again this may have created a whacky effect on the 2121 which if not also feed to the 2121 and 2405 might have shown up as a side effect of the 2121 and 2405 were not part of that filter.

    That probably is it , I recall I had a hell of a time with the crossover when I built my 4343. I did not have access to the schematic at that point (c Sept 1979) and Gary Margulius wrote me a nice letter back when I asked for information. As I recall bass/mid transition really sucked as did the rest of it until I diced the bass/mid filter in favour of bi amping. ( the Nakamichi blcok box crossover was about 6 db down at 320hz)

    Capacitors back then were like wet sponges and I recall I actually blow up the bi polar 50volt capacitors in my prototype network. They popped like streamers. I started off with text book values after measure the impediance and then spent 6 months tweaking the chokes in the HF passband until until it voiced better than anything else on the planet.

    Dang it I am on holidays, why am I sitting on this, no its a JBL holiday!

    Hope that helps unlock the mystery.

    regards

    Ian

  2. #92
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    Ok. Here's a simplified schematic for the HF and UHF in a 4344 or 4345. DCR is extremely important and this model used Jantzen 18 and 20 AWG coils.

    I wouldn't waste my time with a non biased version with a system of this caliber once I determined this model was good to go. RobH says my last version is damn nice so, you have three to choose from. Wind your own tapped autotransformers , use my previous equivalent circuits, or try this one.

    Have fun and post results.
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  3. #93
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    Nice.

    I am curious, what are the differences in the voltages drives b/n the equivalent circuit with the simplified schematic?

    Ian

  4. #94
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    Orange is "old equivalent", green is "new equivalent", white is actual "tapped autotransformer" model.

    Orange was done from 1981 Engineering Design Specification voltage drive using datapoints - all L-Pads open - all 8 ohm dummy loads.

    There is enough slop in the L-Pads that both are viable - the new model should be cheaper to build with less parts.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Ok. Here's a simplified schematic for the HF and UHF in a 4344 or 4345. DCR is extremely important and this model used Jantzen 18 and 20 AWG coils.

    Have fun and post results.

    Thanks for your time Giskard.
    And thanks for your hint Ian.

    Actually I have a emergency to close speaker fast because I have two kids and my living-room is a disaster zone by my two big speaker dismental on area

    So I decide to build little upgrade with parts
    (eventely recycling in futur new complete crossover construction)

    Here pict in according of Ian recommendation : I change cheap polyester caps by a big film foil caps solen silver solder, cancel switch post on speaker.

    I re-buid speaker tomorow and I send my impression later , I hope you wait a couple of days befaore post impression because I not burning caps before...

    By the way I install a new 2405 diagram origninal and clean my 2420 diagram.

    So, all in this, it is shure the high section is probably sound to realy too hight (same steel on chalkboard)

    But I triying to syntetize all info and try to buid schematic of Charge couple biaising circuit for all driver !!!

    This is my new objective and I stimulate certainly, if you agree, your higher competence again...

    Jean
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Ok.
    I wouldn't waste my time with a non biased version with a system of this caliber once I determined this model was good to go.
    Have fun and post results.
    Hi again Giskard,

    first thanks thanks and thanks again for your effort and time.
    (same fo you Earl )

    Well I feel like in kids who not good comprehension in regards on explanation

    1---
    I keep feeling on your posts, the best circuit is 3145 and modifying for charge circuit biais?? no ??

    2---
    I'M not good comprehension what is circuit battery control voltage and where is put in the circuit. In this regard it is possible to build Hand schematic on LOW frequency (for ex)

    3--- I'm in impression the air core is definitively better in choke or autotransformer coil ??? In this case, It is preferable to build in according the equivalence no???

    4--- I try to build a complete crossover in charge biais circuit for all 4 drivers of my 4343.

    5---

    On your circuits pct what is DCR represent and the few number ir Ohms resistance ???

    Thanks
    The quest continue.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Orange is "old equivalent", green is "new equivalent", white is actual "tapped autotransformer" model.

    Orange was done from 1981 Engineering Design Specification voltage drive using datapoints - all L-Pads open - all 8 ohm dummy loads.

    There is enough slop in the L-Pads that both are viable - the new model should be cheaper to build with less parts.
    Great stuff,

    Well we have two viable alternatives now!

    Ian

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeph
    [color=black]I have never gotten around doing anything about the 52 uF capacitor originally discussed in this thread. I have found a couple of possible replacements, but I am no longer so sure that the original 52 uF cap used is all that bad, although it annoys me that so much of the signal has to pass it.
    I again Jeph

    I just sended a pict of new caps replacement of "nasty yellow caps"

    I Cancelled the $#%$%? switch close to speakers post....

    The result of analyser is Big difference... If you want result pict let me know...

    For now I have a hint for you.
    Because I'm leave in half hour of solen I go yesterday for buying caps and talk a hour with Cristian Of Solen.
    At this meeting I test my nasty yello caps and it is a polyester caps, the form is bad and result of dielectric dissipation is hight ... At my big surprise the caps is good but insane effecacity... the %dissipation is .0456 and the new solen is .000438 so the effect of sponge is the hidde effect


    I talk for life caps with guy. Of course the life depend of type: Polyester ot metal film , etc. is long life but the electrolytic caps is maximum 15 years time life... The current pass but the dissipation energy factor is crest by age. This explanation is corrolar by fact : my L pads is put arround to -3 db for flat response noise pink noise mesure with RTA. The electrolytic 72 Uf is probably more tired than 52 Uf because 80% current is pass on 15".

    For the point of view of Cristian It is absolutely shure the big electrolytic caps is scrap and tottally innefficient. (I'm exiting to go in shop for test my cap in sofisticated caps analyser...)

    Of course the resistance and manys other parts in crossover is so cheap and too used... no surprise...

    Well, One other information interview... Cristian of Solen is explain the mix of capacitor is valuable only if you build design with cheap caps. If you put fast caps "first grade" solen (look pub no?) the soldering in parralle is more altering result of the difference of each Caps.

    Because the Fast caps is fast, Cristian is not shure is relevant to preload fast caps and it is not shure the quantity of parts and soldering contact is make less result by simpliest one fast caps result...

    Other hint interview, Cristian aggree is compression driver is sound probably better with more slow caps... depend design state od driver, etc, etc,

    Other hint , Solen is close to put a tefflon caps in market : really hight voltage capacity (1000) and apparently top on the line in sound quality, but the price is really high 4 to 5 higher price than actual high line Film and foil.

    I hope this informations is interesting



    Jean.

  9. #99
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    Very nice!

    Thanks Jean

    ***

    Here's my charge-coupled, all Solen, 250Ti network. Photo courtesy of jblnut.
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  10. #100
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    3144/3145 biased schematic

    Charge-coupled 3144/3145 network schematic for JBL 4344 and 4345 Studio Monitors.

    Schematic moved to Post 124

  11. #101
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    Ok this result is dedicate of all members help in this hard road on update and upgrade network JBL...

    After 12 hour of burning white noise network.

    The result of 2121 is drastically corrected.

    If you check the delta Y value, the unmodified network is 3.7 Db difference in thin line vertical to heavy line vertical So the difference of is more than double power.

    After cancel switch and change solen caps the difference is 0.62 dB
    AHHHH that is better curve no?

    Want more result ???



    Jean.

    existential question: the nasty yellow is the problem or switch ???
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  12. #102
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    Hi Jean

    Other hint , Solen is close to put a tefflon caps in market : really hight voltage capacity (1000) and apparently top on the line in sound quality, but the price is really high 4 to 5 higher price than actual high line Film and foil.
    I hope this informations is interesting
    - It is interesting & Thanks for posting Solens' ( Cristians') opinions.

    Well, One other information interview... Cristian of Solen is explain the mix of capacitor is valuable only if you build design with cheap caps.
    - No doubt he would be horrified from looking at my first picture .

    - This combo is a single 20uf "Solen" MPP surrounded by (6) .47uf "CDET" Mylar Film & Foils. The others are (2) .079uf "F-Dyne" Polypropylene Film & Foil and (2) .090 PolyStyrene Film & Foil ( of unknown brand ) .

    - The combo is slated for testing out as a DC biased pair. Still need to scavenge another 20uf Solen from around here.


    If you put fast caps "first grade" solen (look pub no?) the soldering in parralle is more altering result of the difference of each Caps.
    - Yes, all the caps in parallel can dramatically change the final results

    Because the Fast caps is fast, Cristian is not shure is relevant to preload fast caps and it is not shure the quantity of parts and soldering contact is make less result by simpliest one fast caps result...
    - I'm without opinion since I don't have a 4343 and a 52uf cap to worry about . (That is what you were commenting about , was it not ? )
    - If he was commenting on DC biasing / then / he should try it out / there's "no comparison" especially with Solen caps ( IME ).

    Other hint interview, Cristian aggree is compression driver is sound probably better with more slow caps... depend design state od driver, etc, etc,
    - I generally think compression drivers and Solens don't mix ( DC biased or not ) / but granted, I haven't yet tried every permutation & combination .


    - I promised pics a while back .


    - The first I've mentioned.
    - The second is a single Solen 3.3.uf strapped across a resistor creating a High Frequency EQ ( HF, EQ ) .
    - The third & fourth are other caps "blended" & DC biased to recreate essentially a 3 uf ( HF , EQ ) .

    - Note the difference in sizes .

    - You'll just have to accept my word on what sounds better to my ears .

    <>
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  13. #103
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    Here to assist those keen to update the 3143 are some near field curves of the drivers using the "old equivalent" 3145 network on a 4345 baffle, the 2122H, 2420+DR2425 dias, 2405 and full response.

    At least you get some idea of the respective driver outputs and the combined overall response.

    Ian
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    3144/3145 biased
    WOW!! bravo Giskard for this pro jobs...

    and thanks for post.




    Jean

    I trying to analyse all info for build Dc biais circuit on my speaker this week...

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K
    Hi Jean
    - It is interesting & Thanks for posting Solens' ( Cristians') opinions.
    I re-read my post and I add other info of solen Cristian Opignion.

    1--- Caps is fragile in vibration and it is important to fix for minimize the tribo-electric effect.

    A-- never glue with hot gun glue it is too hot and destroy the caps
    B-- Never tarap in center you deform the caps and altering the result
    c-- Tarap on each side is really better or glue with epoxy of glue.

    (My experience of ingeneering vibration is the result is great if you fix caps
    with the harder glue as possible for minimize the signature vibration of glue: epoxy or crazy glue is top.
    Bee wax for temporary set up is best.

    Personnally I put crazy glue of all caps Into my modification. So all is fixed by other caps and glue into board of network... It is " crazy" but realy best solution

    I hope this info is happy for build better set-up.

    ===========================

    Earl , thanks for manys quality info and picts, I'm back soon for analyse and result in this regards...

    I'm not shure if i write correctly or read good your point of view but Cristian is not explain 2 caps of parralle is better of one...
    the soldering of 2 is decrease response in regards of one. this is real only for fast Caps.

    Another point of view in the world of sea

    well for your caps build, I have no real point of view and open my mind in any sensitive experience... The reality of complexe phenomenon is rarely completely explain by one theory... many voodoo experience touch of many factor and for this it is not good to close the mind of experience..

    Of course the quality of your contact, and the vibration of the kit is not best, but the effect of the skin on caps is probably more dilute in this type of set-up caps. But more less efficience caps more skin effect.
    So you build more a personnal signature and fast caps is maybe less signature by efficience dielectric.

    What is right ??? maybe a part of all... More fast less effect but never caps is perfect

    The other way is maybe the DC charge

    I check my response electric of 2420 connected in network before and after the modification caps. And, if I compare the response of the network+2420...

    the polyester caps more slow and effectively build relatively a better curve response by caps Solen. the problem is the iregularity of response
    this problem of 2420 is attenuate by "slow" caps and the skin effect build by poor efficience caps polyester...

    In other hand , because the caps solen is more loose energy and build less skin effect, the response is more clear and more power, so it is important to replace the L-pad in consequence...

    And the burning is really long time 305 Hours for complete burning...
    after rodding, this impulse and harmonic transient is really more wide deep and soft...




    Jean

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