the China debate...

[louped garouv]

so i have heard folks rambling on about all the junk made in *PRC* for quite awhile now...

and to a certain degree, can see where folks are comming from...

that being said, what do you all think of the following comment...

...loudspeakers have gotten better and more consistent — maybe because everything's made in China now. Last week I tested six commercial tweeters. These right-out-of-the-box, little $40 tweeters weren't close — they were identical. I was amazed they had that level of consistency. And the same holds true for some of the small woofers used in console-top systems. Speakers have gotten a lot more consistent...

http://mixonline.com/recording/artis...augspurger-qa/

[BMWCCA]

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." —Emerson

[Mr. Widget]

that being said, what do you all think of the following comment...

I don't think it has much to do with "China". Sure they can hand paint little rubber duck faces better and cheaper than anyone, but when it comes to precision, it has to do with modern methods of manufacture. From what I have measured and anecdotally from the people in the industry that I have talked with, everyone's speakers are more precisely matched than those of yore. The days of hand machined parts that needed to be carefully matched and balanced are gone.... there is no longer a need for this:

[Allanvh5150]

Unfortunately Mr Widget, the little painted faces are usualy done with lead based paint or they contain excesive amounts of fomaldehyde or may even contain milk protien thinned with malemine......The Chinese manufacturing industry is vey consistent indeed.

Allan.

[Mr. Widget]

Unfortunately Mr Widget...

Don't be daft.

We aren't talking about lead tainted toys, melamine in the milk, toxic toothpaste, radioactive steel, etc... we were talking about how they CAN make loudspeaker drivers that can and sometimes do rival those from Europe, Japan, and the US.

Virtually all of the shortcomings that we so frequently hear about are due to management cutting corners to make an extra buck, we have similar problems here as well, but fortunately our government tends to ride shotgun far better than the Chinese government does... I imagine they will improve in this regard too as their economy grows and their capitalistic society matures.

On a side note, a few years ago I was building industrial prototypes for companies like HP, Dell, and Nike. When we started making prototypes like this one and we were asked to print this on them, I knew our days of producing prototypes for these multinational companies were numbered.


Widget
.

[timc]

I don't believe that poor quality has anything to do with where things are made anymore.

PRC can make very high quality if the want. There are some really crappy product comming out of other countries as well. The reason we hear about PRC often is because so much is made there these days.

-Tim

[Robh3606]

I don't believe that poor quality has anything to do with where things are made anymore.

So true. Many of the factories set-up in China are new and they are using SOTA surface mount assembly lines. Everything is palletized and automated. The idea is to increase volume and get the "person" out of the process. The less hands on the better, the more automated the more consistent the workmanship is.

The days of line after line of hand solderers are long gone. All you need are a dozen or so skilled workers and you are good to go. The companies going over there are more than happy to train them with their lower labor rates.

Rob

[Maron Horonzakz]

Sood the lower labor rates will be over here.

[louped garouv]

when it comes to precision, it has to do with modern methods of manufacture. From what I have measured and anecdotally from the people in the industry that I have talked with, everyone's speakers are more precisely matched than those of yore. The days of hand machined parts that needed to be carefully matched and balanced are gone.... there is no longer a need for this:

that's basically what my thoughts tend to go....

that is, unless some one wants a local craftsman to hand make assemblies, which i am sure is likely available in the far east also...
as it is here....

generally it's not what you want, but rather how much you can pay that seems to be the limiting factor, in most cases...

i guess it's the same the world over, for the most part...

[Mr. Widget]

The days of line after line of hand solderers are long gone. All you need are a dozen or so skilled workers and you are good to go. The companies going over there are more than happy to train them with their lower labor rates.

To me that is the irony of this whole thing... if companies moved their manufacturing to China due to low labor costs, only to reduce the labor force by automation.... that doesn't really seem to add up to such a great savings.

I think we have to figure in their lack of governmental oversight which allows them to pollute the hell out of their country (which will ultimately be our problem too) both in the construction of those factories and in the production of the products they are making.

With luck higher fuel costs will slow the process down and we will all consume less and the countries producing goods that do less harm to the planet will be economically at less of a disadvantage.


Widget

[4313B]

I think we have to figure in their lack of governmental oversight which allows them to pollute the hell out of their country (which will ultimately be our problem too) both in the construction of those factories and in the production of the products they are making.

And people wonder why there has to be organized labor.

This company (that isn't in China) didn't get the memo about exploiting children:

US blueberry farms accused of using children as pickers


I'm sure by now we've all seen the documentaries on China with respect to their appalling labor conditions. They remind me of the United States in previous centuries. People actually had to be told (and often violently) not to own slaves, not to exploit women and children, not to pollute the hell out of their surroundings, etc. etc.

[louped garouv]

we used to pick fruit for local farms when we were kids....

good times; think the farmers may have lost out, as we almost always ate our weight in berries too...

at least it seemed that way

[SEAWOLF97]

"Made in Japan" at one time had the same negative connotation as "Made in China" now has. They turned it around , largely with the help from William Edwards Deming ...there is now an annual quality award in Japan called the "Deming Award"

_________________________________________________

I recently talked to someone "in the know" who told me that Chinese workers are now considered "squeaky" ...they are asking for better wages and working conditions.....many ubber profit companies are re-considering China based plants and are moving on to Vietnam where workers are better educated and not yet "squeaky" ...Intel is building a huge chip fab near HCMC ..

http://www.intel.com/jobs/Vietnam/

and high tech usually follows Intel ...just saw a Pentax DSLR from VN ,,,Japanese companies are buying up the property there, not in China.

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_880047545...T_f41e9fb5.HTM

The Intel Corp. executive overseeing the company's manufacturing operations in Vietnam said its planned $1 billion facility here is on track to begin production in 2009. The facility is set to be the crowning jewel in Intel's already mammoth assembly and test network.
Rick Howarth, general manager of Intel Products Vietnam, told EE Times that construction on the company's 500,000-square-foot facility in the Saigon Hi-Tech Park would begin in December, and was targeted for completion by mid-2009. Volume production is expected to begin September 2009 with a contingent of 500 engineers, rising to around 1,000 by the end of the year.
4,000 jobs
Howarth said it would take approximately three years for Intel to fully ramp up the plant, which will have a capacity of 600 million chipsets annually and employ up to 4,000 people.
Though it will be almost two years until the plant is up and running, Intel is hardly sitting idle. The firm broke ground in March on an office near the factory site, and has been busy readying the infrastructure and engineering resources to support its massive project in this emerging market.


a very interesting read about Deming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900 – December 20, 1993) was an American statistician, professor, author, lecturer, and consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in the United States during the Cold War, although he is perhaps best known for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality, testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through various methods, including the application of statistical methods.
Deming made a significant contribution to Japan's later reputation for innovative high-quality products and its economic power. He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage. Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only just beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his death. [2]


Dr. Deming: The American Who Taught the Japanese About Quality


http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Deming-Amer.../dp/0671746219

Urges statistician and quality-control expert Deming, "Don't blame the Japanese" for the U.S. trade deficit--"we did it to ourselves." According to Aguayo, Deming is largely responsible for Japan's industrial revolution, though he is little known in the U.S. Here addressing America's corporate leadership, the author--a former bank executive who studied with Deming at New York University--contends persuasively that Deming's advice is savvy, current, even indispensable: American management practices must change, renouncing goals of immediate profit in favor of long-term quality. Aguayo expounds on the leadership training techniques and specific steps that would likely trigger lower costs, increased productivity, larger market share and profits, along with more jobs and higher standards of living for all.

[Mr. Widget]

Dr. Deming: The American Who Taught the Japanese About Quality.

It would seem we need a new Dr. Demming.

Sure a handful of us here in the US and around the world appreciate the quality of these vintage JBL and Altec speakers... but most Americans accept the quality of inferior Bose and even Bose competing products from JBL and others.


Widget

[4313B]

many ubber profit companies are re-considering China based plants and are moving on to Vietnam where workers are better educated and not yet "squeaky"

Hogwash. Better education means greater resistance to exploitation. Eventually there will be nowhere left for these companies to run.

Globalize Organized Labor for the Win!