JBL L222 Disco's + L220 Oracle's

[Earl K]

Hi Steve

- Yes, I brought up the Selenium horn ( HL-14 ) suggestion previously - though it's not going to fit any better than a 2307/8 combo.

- Speaking of which, this morning I obtained an answer to a question that I had let plague me for too long a time.

- The question : Does the 2308 lens-plate provide any loading for the lower mid frequencies.

- The answer is yes it does. It does provide some lower frequency loading. The H94 should provide a tad more lower extension.

- Installing the lens and then remeasuring with pink noise, showed that 800hz "popped up" about 2.5 db ( while 630 hz also rose a bit ) . 800 hz ended up about 3 db down from 1000 hz.

- The point ? The shorter 2307/08 combo will work quite well for an 800 hz projected crossover point.

- A 2307 with a 2425/6 mounted to it needs @ 12" ( & a hair ) of depth to fit ( that's to front of horn flange but not including the remaining 3/4" of horn ) .

- I realize that even with this reduced depth - the crossover would still require relocation away from that backplate.

[Steve Gonzales]

That grill was a special option that apparently didn't catch on very well because I've never seen even one pair in person, only in the literature. BTW: I've recovered my grills, L220's-Black L222's JBL like Blue, I like them a lot better than the original. If you want to have me do them for you, let me know. Maybe you have someone already, but I would be willing to do it right, as if they were mine. There is a thread called "updated look for L222 and L220 grills". Do a search and check it out. I've got to say it again, I'm loving this L220 pow-wow, I have the impression that it is not a highly regarded JBL model to most and that is not a slam to our fellow members, to each his own, for sure, but it is a rare occurrence that I find someone who appreciates these models like you do. Anything I can do to help, don't hesitate to ask-ever-. I would love to do your grills too. Best Regards, Steve G.

[Steve Gonzales]

Earl, good work Sir!. Let me propose this..., I believe this 2307/2425 combo is an excellent idea!. Look, a person could do one of a couple of things. they could use the LE5-9 baffle as a template and make that piece out of 1/4" plywood, that would save a fraction, and then simply do the same thing to the back plate and use fir strips to surround the perimeter of the back plate and save an inch all together, BINGO! Or, they could just live with a 2" spacer and be done, a person with little skill could just fir- out the pack plate. Thank you so much for your time and effort, I really have enjoyed all your responses and always ask myself, regardless of the subject/thread, "I wonder what Earl thinks about this?"
Hey, didn't the L200B model use the LE85/H91/L91 , X'ed @ 800hz?. Thank you my Friend, Steve G.

[Earl K]

Hey, didn't the L200B model use the LE85/H91/L91 , X'ed @ 800hz?. Thank you my Friend, Steve G.

Likely, I'd have to check. I believe the 4331/4333 is in the same camp , while the L300 went & used the longer horn. All with the same apparent crossover point.

[Steve Gonzales]

I purchased the 2312/2420 set-up from my bud in New York, they are a MINT pair out of some 4333's so at least one model used them. They currently reside in my L220's. Hey Partner, we'll get this figured out! . Thank you, Steve G

[pmakres1]

Steve,
I had a feeling that grille option was pretty rare, because like you I had never seen one "in the flesh"-only in the literature. That's why I wondered whether you had ever seen one turn up. I did look at your thread on the L222 and L220 grilles-and the grille restorations (as well as the overall restorations) look great! I will keep your offer in mind, but as I am currently unemployed money is pretty tight for my audio projects. My grilles are in fairly good shape, considering their age. One thing I get is "separating" of the fabric threads at the top, as a consequence of handling (taking on and off) the grilles. I am assuming from your discussions that you have not found a suitable brown colored cloth. Black would be okay in my room, but then I would be inclined to redo my B460 grille to match. I have a pair of 4313B's in my Florida room system that have the JBL Blue. I also have a pair of 4401's in my office system that have the Blue grilles. In both cases, it's a very dark blue that is so dark you really think it's black unless it has bright daylight on it. I like your closeup photo of the blue grille-is the black fabric the same type of texture?
I love to pow-wow on the L220's too...I don't know why they wouldn't be one of the more respected models in JBL history-I think they are some of the best speakers ever made! I have heard so much hype on the L300 Summit-I have no doubt it is an excellent system..it would of course have to have great midrange and I have no doubt it was an excellent system overall. But what about some of the attributes that the L220 possesses that the L300 did not? For example, there is the tower design of the L220-which places that famous 076 tweeter at a nearly ideal listening height. Then there is the passive radiator-which not only extends the LE14's response, but contributes to the cabinet height as well. Then there is the shape of the cabinet with its non-parallel sides, which is a plus for eliminating standing waves. And the overall soundstage of the L220 is great due to its tower design, and the overall dispersion characteristics of the midrange lens and the 076 Ring radiator! In fairness, I have to say I am not in a position to really compare the L220 to the L300, since I have never actually heard the L300's. (I have heard the L200B's many years ago). But I do know I would not replace my L220's with L300's just on the cabinet/tweeter height issue alone. (I may now never be able to get that horn modification off my mind though...L220 imaging with L300 midrange!)
Finally, speaking of tall speakers, I would be curious as to your opinion of the L250 (later to be known as the 250ti) as compared to the L220. The L250 was introduced not long after I bought my L220's, and they did sound quite decent, though I really didn't listen at length. But they were certainly a unique looking speaker, and to this day I dream about them a bit..though I really only like the "wood" cabinet version. Definitely a "different" looking speaker.
In closing may I just say... Long live the L220!

Best regards,

Peter M.

P.S. I believe we do have JoAnne's fabric stores in this area, but I don't know how confident I would be to do the job myself..

[Steve Gonzales]

Peter, My Brah-tha!!,

THAT'S what I'm talkin' bout!!!! Every strong point that you mentioned PLUS that L300 midrange! CORRECT you are Sir. Damn, I've finally found someone who COMPLETELY understands what I'm saying about the blending of the best of both. I will say that the 136a in the L300 is probably a stronger LF driver but I have said it before and I'll say it again: I don't feel like I'm missing much, if ANYTHING at ALL. With one pair playing, I can shake the room with clean, tight bass, with both pairs, I can shake THE HOUSE with clean powerful pressure waves of coherent low frequency output. All the attributes you mention are true, the trapizoidal enclosure, the placement of the midrange and tweeter. Dude, get your butt back to work and get yourself these horns!!!. What a killer low -end you must have with that B460 and the WONDERFUL woofer control that the Mac's deliver-WOW!. My bro has 2 SUMO B380 knock-offs and the delilah cross over and some L250's. Sweet mother of BASS!. The L250 has a different tonal character, it takes some real tweaking with it's unusual buss bar style crossover adjustments to get it right. But once you're there, oh man, are you there. In our quest for the right set up, we found that they are not a speaker that is a plug and play. They also need a lot of CLEAN power (250wpc-cont.,500wpc-dynamic.) from an amp with a high dampening factor to as I say "Come alive". He uses a Yamaha MX1000u and that seems to fulfill the L250's needs. He really doesn't even need the B380's, the LE14H-1's are friggin' KILLER LF transducers! I am the "poster child" for the "To each his own" camp and I'll say that while the L250's impress me, give me some L222/L220's ANY day!. I am also a relative newcomer to the compression horn school, but from the first time I really LISTENED to some, really LISTENED, it was, point,game, set, MATCH BABY, it was OVER!. Let me take a moment to say NO OFFENCE INTENDED, MEANT,INFERRED OR REMOTELY IMPLIED to ANYONE who likes, loves or otherwise, anything that is not exactly what I have. This post is an expression of my PERSONAL opinion and I in NO WAY mean it to express that all other speakers, drivers, models,colors or otherwise are not GREAT, COOL, GOOD, and EXCELLENT in their own right (unless their not a LANSING derived product, then they're . Okay Peter, as I was saying, the L250 is a capable speaker, in the hands of a patient, capable person(s). As for the grills, the blue fabric that you saw from JoAnn's was scrapped long ago for some honest to goodness purpose made grill cloth. It is a blue that although looks fairly good, isin't that JBL blue that I just LOVE. Something BIG is about to happen, it is about 99.7% a done deal to get the ACTUAL Monitor Blue JBL fabric that is from the very source JBL uses. About a couple of i's to dot and a couple of t's to cross and I'll have some for us all, spoke to the person Tuesday and am waiting for the swatch just to make sure. I don't know why, it's is the very same, identical cloth from the same people who make it but they offered and I accepted. Have you considered the light brown color that JBL calls "Camel"?. I could get you some of that fairly cheap. Member (Mr.) Earl K has been a great help in researching just what driver/horn can be used in place of the long H92's so that the spacer isin't an issue, so keep watching for updates concerning this info. He's really great about that, hell, all these guys here are really fantastic about freely sharing whatever they might know and have been my personal model in regards to doing all I can to share what
I've learned and helping, great group of people here on the LHS. Look at you, see what you've done?, I guess it's not hard to see that these L220's inspire me . I can't stop thinking about the B460 now, I know that the SUB1500 is the "end-all" now but I've got to say, I really dig that big wonderful object and it puts out BASS and lots of it, great combination. I'll close now, until next time, Good sound to you, Steve G

[4313B]

I can't stop thinking about the B460 now, I know that the SUB1500 is the "end-all" now but I've got to say, I really dig that big wonderful object and it puts out BASS and lots of it, great combination.

The SUB1500 WAS the "end-all" JBL has moved on now. We kind of expect a transducer the caliber of the SUB1500 to be what it is and more. The cool thing is that 25 year old product like the B460 can sound so damn excellent.

As for the substitution of an LE14 in place of a 136, that was available in the golden age of the JBL Loudspeaker Component Series. I realize that the L220 network isn't optimized for the HL92/LE85 but if you like it who's to argue. Anyone is free to do the same thing JBL would have done and tweek a crossover component here or there if desired.

I'm waiting for someone to try the L220 with the L300 network, HL92/LE85 and 077.

I'm also waiting for someone to charge-couple some of these legacy networks and see what they think.

[Steve Gonzales]

Giskard, you nailed it there Sir, I am going to get some L300's this summer from good friend and I will do just that!. He even left out the screw that is behind the tags so I don't have to worry about messin' them up. I just bought another pair of 076's and I will put them in the L300's likewise just to check it out; it ought to LOOK cool too, right? Never underestimate the value of good looks!

[pmakres1]

Steve my friend!

This discussion is getting really fun...I could talk about the L220's all day and all night! I'll TRY to keep this discussion on that track, but we'll have to include the B460 in it too...! The L220 was such a good design I just can't say it enough. I do find the horn idea very intriguing, and as I said before, I have wondered about such a mod for a time. I've been trying to brainstorm along with you guys on the Horn length issue. It looks like the H91 horn is a bit shorter but not short enough. I'd like you to take a look at this eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

(Pardon me for not putting this in the marketplace area)

The seller has been kind enough to put a tape measure alongside the horn and driver. Looks like only a tad over 9-1/2" deep. I realize the 2441 is a
HF driver, but what about this horn? It seems that we need a horn about this short to do the job and still be able to (maybe) close up the back of the L220
with its network plate. Of course, I am sure the much shorter horn would impact the sound (image depth) to a degree, but should still yield a substantial improvement over the L220's stock LE5-9 midrange speaker, and still be able to close up the cabinet (hopefully). Of course the horn also needs to have a hole pattern compatible with the midrange drivers (hopefully the LE85). Take a look and tell me what you think!

Now on to L220/B460 talk. You are right, the low end from this combo is so good I just can't put it into print. Between the L220's LE14H, the passive radiator, and the B460's 2245H driver and 8 cubic foot enclosure, It's unbeatable! Of course, if the recording has a muddy bass line, you can't expect good tonal character (of course you will still have the impact!). But with a good recording with good low end tonal character, it's unbelievable! One of the first impressions you will have (and I still get every time I listen to a good recording) is you can't believe that a speaker can give you this kind of deep, clean output and be able to handle it so effortlessly! And the lower midrange is superb as well, since the B460 improves the L220's already good IM characteristics. (the LE14H and passive radiator's cone movements are minimal even at high volume, and yet the L220's do not end up sounding "thin" at all, as I had feared before I made the change). The sound is so full and deep, it's just great!

Next, as to the speaker/amplifier interface: you are correct, the McIntosh/JBL combination is tough to beat. Whether it is the Autoformer output, or the excellent circuit design or both, the MAC amps do a wonderful job controlling the speakers, and have a wonderfully warm, enthusiastic sound. I am also a longtime Mac fan...not surprisingly I guess, I grew up in the Binghamton, NY area (graduated from nearby Vestal High School in 1977, and moved to Florida in 1979). I toured the McIntosh plant in Binghamton in 2003, and again last year. (I still have family in the area). My MC300 amp (300 watts/channel) does a great job with the L220's, and my MC252 does a superb job driving the B460 in its 500 watt bridged mode. To tip my hand just a bit, my next major electronics upgrade would be to drive the L220's with a pair of the highly acclaimed MC501 Monoblock amps. I've designed a method to physically integrate the 501's into my equipment stacks, all I need is the money! And to REALLY put the icing on the cake, a 501 to drive the B460 would be great too..it wouldn't really offer a higher power advantage, but does have a higher damping rating than the 252. I almost opted for the 501 to drive the B460, but the 252 was slightly less money, and offered the flexibility to convert back to a stereo amp, perhaps one day moving it to one of my other systems. I realize that I would be exceeding the L220's maximum recommended amplifier rating just a bit, but as they say, more damage is done by underpowering a speaker, and I think the L220's would handle it just fine.

Now on to the LE14H vs. the LE14H-1 drivers: just what is the difference between the two, besides the LE14H-1 having a black cone? Would reconing an LE14H withan LE14H-1 cone kit do the same thing, or are the magnetic structures different? As I mentioned, I just reconed my LE14H drivers in 2002.

And finally, on to the grille cloths. I had not really considered the "Camel" color, and that is an interesting thought. But, the chocolate brown, or black would probably go better with my brown acoustic foam. As to the
rare L220 grilles with the cutout for the lens-it seems to me that it shouldn't be alll that difficult a task to convert the stock grille to one with a lens cutout by adding a center section to the grille with a cutout (precisely placed and sized, of course!) for the midrange lens. Then restreching a grille fabric over the assembly and "folding" the grille (with some slit reliefs) through the opening and securing it to the back. What do you think?

I'll say it again: In the 23 years I have owned my L220's, I have yet to see a system that so well addresses as many design criteria as the L220. Like you I will stress that there are many,many excellent systems out there, and there is absolutely no slight intended to any other audiophiles...this is just "IMHO". Every time I look at another speaker, I inevitably compare it to the L220. ("where is the lens? where is the passive radiator? what about the depth of image that the L220 gives by recessing the midrange and tweeter from the baffle? And so it goes....) Then there is the issue of finding a speaker that can produce the same kind of impact and soundstage, within practical limitations (not being too large!).

I eagerly look forward to your opinions on these topics Steve, and of course your very capable colleagues on the site!

Best regards to all,

Peter M.

[4313B]

Now on to the LE14H vs. the LE14H-1 drivers: just what is the difference between the two, besides the LE14H-1 having a black cone? Would reconing an LE14H withan LE14H-1 cone kit do the same thing, or are the magnetic structures different?

An LE14H with an LE14H-1 cone is an LE14H-1. The LE14H-1 has been changed to mimic the original LE14H response. Up to ~ 1 kHz the LE14H, LE14H-1, and LE14H-3 are basically interchangeable.

[Zilch]

Short horn was used with 2" exit 375 drivers in early S8 systems:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...761598853&rd=1

It MAY be possible to mate it with a 1" to 2" throat adapter to use with LE85 instead:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...761610846&rd=1

I'm not finding that part listed anywhere. Maybe somebody here knows what it is.

2441 is a 2" mid/HF driver what plays lower than LE85, actually.

I gotta go look this stuff up to be sure I'm not way off base here.

Off to the Heritage Libriary, then....

Note: I sent Techbot the Tech Note on L220 I bought for the forum. It clearly shows the influence of the lens in frequency response curves, with and without.

There may be other options for compression driver replacement of LE5 that might fit, as well. 2427 @ 8.25" plus that short horn gonna be shorter than the LE85 solution by about 1.5", looks like....

[Steve Gonzales]

100% Heterosexual and happily married!!! Quote by you:
" But with a good recording with good low end tonal character, it's unbelievable! One of the first impressions you will have (and I still get every time I listen to a good recording) is you can't believe that a speaker can give you this kind of deep, clean output and be able to handle it so effortlessly!"

MIND READER? PSYCHIC? Where did you come from? I just posted a thread about what a GOOD RECORDING can do for for finding and evaluating your system strengths, i.e.: , if all you have is a pile of 3rd generation tapes and are throwing $$ at your rig because it doesn't sound right, it is a GENERALLY good idea to find reference material to get a baseline and just plain FUN to listen to it "running on all cylinders!". I got such a frustrating bunch responses taking the simple meaning off on completely ridiculous tangents, that I deleted it! . Damn Peter, you just say exactly what I've thought, professed and practiced all along, AMAZING!. I say this not just for the sake of me trying to be right, just to be right,no, it IS the way I feel and it is , again, so good to have a person that I can relate to completely. COOOOL. I want to speak about the horn swap for a minute; I want to say that first off, I own some 375's (same size as the 2441's) and have ventured to see if I could indeed install them in the L220's. You cannot do this without major modification to the divider between the top and bottom sections, as the driver diameter is such that it will not clear that divider. Second, of all the conical horns, the H92/2312 is IMHO, the best sounding of the bunch. It is VERY well suited for the 800HZ crossover point and smooth as hell. I'm afraid that if too many compromises are made to accommodate the combo within the stock dimentions, the whole, dramatic improvement will be lost. I actually run the 375/2395 slant plates directly off the L222 Disco crossovers. I had a lot of varied responses to this and all I can say is WOW!, These old drivers are, to me, AMAZING. they can idle along at low volume or make you want to back up with their output capability. Some of my reference recordings from Acoustic Alchemy and others are a STUNNING display of the absolute GENIUS of the founding Fathers of JBL- they're FIFTY YEARS OLD!!!!!!! Damn, those men are/were visionaries. Project May is the ultimate expression of what being GRATEFUL is and HONORING them is as well, what a CLASS ACT!!!. I hope you check it out. Now, the B460 , what can I say, it's my personal favorite. Always has been. I just like looking at it, so beautiful. The 2245H, what a fantastic transducer!. The enclosure has the CLASSIC JBL look and quality. The performance with your L220's MUST be nothing short of AMAZING!. I will try to find some suitable grill cloth. I will make you this offer Peter, you pay for the cloth and postage and I'll recover them GRATIS, just to see them in that gorgeous listening area you've so thoughtfully created for yourself, what do you think?, NO SWEAT! . oh, as far as using a compression driver that is like a 2441 or others (for a midrange) is not a problem at all,in fact, they are used commonly for this in everything from the Paragon to big 43xx Studio Monitors. Now for another coincidence; my best Friend on the planet and fellow JBL nut is Mr. David Brink from Binghamton, N.Y.!. He is probably the very reason I've come to love the compression driver. He has consulted with me and is just a good person-period. Might you know him?. Well Peter, it's been a continuing pleasure to chat with you Sir, let me know when you want those grills done and I'll take it from there, Best Regards, Steve G

thank you Zilch!!!!

[Earl K]

Zilch, et al,

- Criteria for just the horn length supporting 800hz is @ 8.5" .
- Mouth area is another factor that must be accounted for. ( at the moment I forget that formula )

The 2311 ( short horn seen with that 2441 driver ) when mated to a 2427 driver = either a 2425/6 with the 2307 on it . Same length of horn & throat .

- The 1" to 2" adapter is the 2327.
When it is mated to the 2311 - this combo once again, is just another ad hoc 2307 .

- A lonely 2311 on a 2441 really doesn't "like" 800 hz. Even factoring in the length of the throat inside the 2441 & adding it to the 2311 / one comes up a tad short for the criteria of a 1/2 wave support . I guess I should pink noise a combo horn/lens, to take a look . Of course the big drivers 'diaphragm has an area that is at least 4 times that of the smaller format driver. That of course means a 2441 in a home HiFi setting can literally do what it wants at 800hz. Hell , it can go direct radiator if it likes at typical home levels


(i) The 2307 on it's own is @ 9." ( without drivers throat depth added )
(ii) The 2311 on a 2441 is @ 7.25"

- Again , the L94 will add a spot of loading to whatever is behind it .

- Personally, I'd try to fit in an old Altec 288C/B/A ( older magnet type ) with a new 8 ohm diaphragm. A 2311 with a 2330 adapter ( or Selenium equivalent ) coupled to the 288s throat depth will load and definately sound nice. Not sure yet about the fit. Sometimes these older 288(s) get neglected in the eBay madness . These old models would, of course, need rehabbing at Great Plains , .

[Zilch]

So, 2330 is a 1" to 2" adapter, then? Looks kinda short in the pics, and there's no taper like 2327.

[I was guessin' from the bolt patterns. ]

2311 (H93?) was used in S8(R), and 2307 (H91?) in S7(R) down to 500 Hz. No wonder they sounded awful....