Those are bass horns, an entirely different technology. You have duct-tuned bass reflex low frequency cabinets.Originally Posted by nestawasright
Those are bass horns, an entirely different technology. You have duct-tuned bass reflex low frequency cabinets.
Hello all. I have ,for a while now, promised to have the pictures of the speakers on which this project is based. I now have them ready and are now here.
See them and post your suggestions on the project.
I am also going to post the horns in the "swap" pages. I am inviting proposals for their replacement. Interested in seeing specs on midrange and tweeters.
Accepting suggestions on Amp's, EQ's, Pre-Amp's and Crossover's that would compliment the 4647 here.
Here is the 4647:
Here are the horns:
Music, I say, is the first love I will miss, when I die.
It seems you are committed to replacing the 2445 drivers and 2380 horns.
Do you have the 3115A crossovers that came with that system?
Have you ever even played them?
Watch for updates to the "Quick and Dirty 4430's" thread.
I'm makin' two-ways outta them boxes over there in the next month or so....
Hi Zilch,the ever so efficient board member-No I don't have the 3115A crossover that came with this system. I would have love to hear them.
I will keep my eyes peeled on your project as suggested. I expect to learn a lot from it, sonically and asthetically.
I'm not doing anything else with the 2445 drivers and cabinets. As per your earlier suggestion. I will work on the cabinet to make it more asthetically pleasing. I plan though, in replacing the horns, to get a midrange and set of tweeters. If I get just the drivers, I will build a cabinet to house both and set it on top the 4647 with its 2445 drivers. The proceed to get the rest of the equipments. Or, I would wait and see what your "two-ways" end up as and pick from that.
I have decided to trade in the 2380 horns because I cannot find an acceptable solution to bringing them in the living room. Rather, I would have to do a lot of GF bribing to do so. And I'm told to really enjoy them, I would have to be 30 feet from them. I cannot afford a house that size and certainly, an apartment is out of the question.
Thanks a lot Zilch. You've been most helpful. Keep the ideas streaming in!
Music, I say, is the first love I will miss, when I die.
Is this your horn? Check the dimensions.
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2380a.pdf
If so, the 30 ft. thing is total BS.
The 90° x 40° dispersion pattern is cited by JBL as optimum for home use.
AND, it plays down to 500 Hz, highly desireable.
Buy 3115A crossovers on eBay and try the system. If you hate it, you can always sell the components later.
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-CROSSOVER-MO...QQcmdZViewItem
Zilch our abled and responsive board member is a "two-way" person. He has carefully and wisely nudge me to that approach. Where I sought to get a midrange speaker for this project, he has cautiously suggested I don't. "Try what you now have and see, before, I take it, spending money unnecessairly.
Question is, and this may be a foolish one from someone who's willing to learn--no how can I put this question. I cannot ask if two-way systems are better sonically than three way systems. But think I can ask, are two and three way systems particular to specific needs? Put differently, are two ways better for one application than another? Or is this just a matter of the components used and their capacity to satisfy the spectral length?
I hope to learn something from this, perhaps, dumb question. As I will be completing a two-way system with these speakers.
Michael
Music, I say, is the first love I will miss, when I die.
A7s and Model 19s are both two way systems...
I like them both, think I am liking the A7s more than the Model 19s lately...
but two way systems can be good...
I also agree that the 90x40 dispertion is good for home listening -- I have both Altec 511 & 811 horns with that distribution, they sound fine (with proper dampning)
That's a VERY important question, actually.
The more drivers there are in a system, the more difficult it is to get them to integrate with one another. The ideal system would have but one driver, and it would cover the entire audio spectrum. It doesn't exist in practice, of course, largely because of the laws of physics in sound reproduction.
Recognizing this, I believe everyone would agree that two-way is the next reasonable choice, and a worthy pursuit. Because of the same limitations of technology, however, it's not easily achieved. There are compromises that must be made in putting together a good sounding system with just two drivers.
Getting full high-frequency extension is one of the problems. The simple answer is to add a tweeter on top of a competent two-way, and some would argue, since the tweeter is "supplemental," it's still a two-way system. That's a stretch, I'd say. On the other hand, using a sub at the other end IS, in my mind, merely an enhancement of a two-way system.
To most accurately reproduce the entire audio spectrum, more drivers, four or even five, often, are required. There are many advocates of such multi-way systems here, and they dedicate themselves to overcoming the difficulties of having the multiple drivers play together accurately and cohesively. Many threads in this forum document that endeavor.
Your system is a competent two-way. I am encouraging you to acquire the proper crossover for it and to see if you like the way it sounds. You may have to do some reconditioning of the drivers, as well.
I have no experience with your horn and mid/high driver, but considering what the system was designed for, I assume it's worth keeping together. I suspect there are other members here who know the 2445 and 2380/A well. They can better advise you on achieving optimum performance with that particular combination.
I DO know the 2225/6H in that box, and you'll likely find you'll want to add a subwoofer to your system for best performance, or replace the woofer and retune the box as I'll be describing in the Q&D thread. 2226H will not provide extended bass, but that which it DOES provide is highly accurate and articulate. Read punchy and dynamic here.
Bottom line, know what you have first before proceeding. Get the proper crossover, and play it for a couple of months. Who CARES what it looks like for now? That is easily remedied, once you determine it is worthy of the effort. As you say, the MUSIC is the prime consideration here, and THAT is yet to be experienced....
I agree, if you add a tweeter, you've got a three way, but to some, it's just semantics. Is it a two-way with add-ons? Is the crossover REALLY configured to integrate the system together, or are the subs and tweeters, in practice "supplemental?"so my A7s with a 'supplementary' pair of 075 and 'additional' woofers = two way??? I had always heard my Xover referred to as a 4 way
Is 4435 two-way, three-way, or quasi-four-way, actually? JBL has taken to using "quasi-" somewhat liberally in their marketing of late....
I think the point I'm trying to make is more fundamental. Nesta's system has a horn/driver combination that crosses at 500 Hz. If it actually works down there, and I have no reason to doubt that it does, that's highly desireable in a two-way system. Pushing 15" woofers to play up to 1 kHz is a major compromise, just as major as pushing the mid/high driver to play 20 kHz. That's 5+ octaves, tough duty.
I'm guessing this is a highly competent and desireable two-way. If it needs a bit of enhancement, that's an easy and relatively inexpensive task. If the two-way core is solid, don't abandon it, is all....
sorry I deleted my post for all of you wondering -- didn't want to get too OT...
in my case I would say the the intent is a four way, abliet with some unconventional design parameters -- my Xover is designed to provide a more exciting, lively reproduction -- I am not necessarily looking for lab flat response in my basement.... think Disco... (good disco, please)
point taken on teh starting block theory, that is the cheapest easiest way IME
I'd suggest pushing the cab's as close to the wall as possible. It really helps reinforce
the low end with this driver/cabinet combo...not into sub-territory, but it makes a
very perceptible difference, vs. several inches away from the wall or angled in, that
you may (or may not) find to your liking.
I'll have to get a mic designed for RTA before shooting my mouth off (subjective
comments) again re swapping 2446 diaphragms for the 2445's with the same horns
and 3115A's. Don't hold your breath, but it's on my list
-grumpy
Tell us how the system sounds to you, please, Grumpy.
Do you have 2225 and 2380 or 2226 and 2380A?
Do we know the difference(s) between 2380 and 2380A?
It's the more (relatively) recent cinema system with the
2226H/2445J/3115A complement.
2380 vs 2380A? appears to be limited to additional gusseting of the
horn in areas that were likely prone to failure (these are some heavy-ass
compression drivers). I'll try to take some photos
of the whole mess + the 2380(A) horns. I didn't go through the throats
with inside calipers to compare, but they appear to be the same.
Attenuation is maxed out (level matching between horn and direct
radiator), HF emphasis (CD boost) is set to maximum, horn wiring phase is
reversed (per system spec... interesting the the Perkins cab config isn't
also...phase must be rotated enough + time alignment for that to work
better).
Sound is very 'flat' sounding (no reference to imaging, which is OK), but
a bit bright with bass on the thin end... until you turn it up, then it starts
filling in. No obvious 'holes' or standout peaks in the intended passband.
Would like to be able to back these statements up with measurements.
Should mention that these are in a living room with a 2-story cathedral
ceiling with a rather open floorplan, so my comments about the "sound"
may not translate well to a different environment.
Opinion? No surprise here... They need a sub for full range duty. (Anyone
with blank 18dB/oct or 80Hz 523(4|5) cards?)
Comment:JBL/UREI 6260 amp is more than enough to part your hair with
these in a domestic setting (Yes, I have the obligatory Rat Shack SPL
meter, but that's about it other than warble tones on CD and my ears).
Other considerations:
9' apart, against the wall, both cab and horn straight out (no toe in)
(tried toe-in first, more "presence" but for extended listening, my
preference was no toe-in).
listening ~12feet from wall
rear wall - another 20' back, very uneven & open to other space.
side walls - 8' left of left speaker, more that 8' to the right
have not tried room eq with these speakers yet.
Thanks, Grumpy!
I have a 3 dB resistor L-Pad I usually also end up using on the HF with 311XA crossovers. Flat is too "bright" for me, too.
It's a pain to do, but Radio Shack SPL meters will generate response curves from a tone disk. Instructions in the manual.
Bought cheap 5233's just to get the 80 Hz cards. I'll watch for more to show up for you....
Much appreciated.Bought cheap 5233's just to get the 80 Hz cards. I'll watch for more to show up for you....
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