From Studo -> Home Finish

[Rolf]

funny to see an instruction sheet for the veneer in Dutch!

should you have any problems, send me a copy and I can translate it should you want

in english, not in norwegian that is...

edit >> the part I can read says not to use water based glue in any case, but that is exactly what you have done!

frank

The sheet also include english, and I know that it say: not to use water based glue. They recommend contact glue, but as you know one mistake with that, and "good night".

After a talk with the importer they said "ok". They had never been thinking about using wood glue on both sides, let it dry, and melt it with a hot iron.

Rolf

[Titanium Dome]

That's what I like to see. Great results that defy the rules.

Good job.

[Rolf]

That's what I like to see. Great results that defy the rules.

Good job.

Thank's Dome and everybody else for the nice words. And now I am oiling and sanding, oiling and sanding x many times ----> a real job. I will finish with a wax polish.

Can anybody tell me the exact dimensions on the massive walnut on the front edges? In mm is possible. I will start cutting and sanding them very soon. I would be nice to make them as the original.

Rolf

[saeman]

Hi Widget: I can't show you any work that's 20 years old but I have been using this method for a long time with good results. For what it's worth, here's a few comments on problems I have encountered.

1. I have used paper back veneer, bubble free and phenolic backed veneers. Paper backed is the easiest to work with as it is thinner material. Phenolic backed resembles formica in overall thickness. It bonds well but since it is thicker it's harder to make sure there are no voids or bad bond spots.

2. I have talked a lot about buying some kind of commercial heating iron and never have. My wife's clothes iron works great and she hates to use it anyway. Her current iron used to be teflon coated but I've worn patches of the teflon off pressing veneer.

3. Temp setting is about 1/3 of max for most household irons, or about 160 degrees max. Too much heat and you will melt and puddle the glue under the veneer - TROUBLE - if this happens you need to turn the heat way way down and slowly dry the glue again. All you need is enough heat to re-activate the glue to allow both glued surfaces to bond (just like two surfaces coated with comtact cement.

4. Going over the veneer with a hot iron is not enough. More pressure is required to ensure a solid bond. Heat about 1 square foot at a time and immediately (while the surface is still damn hot to the palm of your hand) roll over that area with a 4" veneer roller applying all the pressure you can. Roll slowly and listen for any crackling sounds. Roll with the grain and then roll side to side against the grain. If you hear crackling it indicates that the veneer is lifting. Heat - roll - heat - roll, until there is no crackling to be heard. After doing the whole surface go aroung all edges again. Let that panel/side sit for several hours and then trim off excess veneer. Then go over the whole surface again slowly with the roller and listen for any crackling. After sitting for a while if the bond is not good it will lift. If this problem occurs hit it with the heat again. I have always used Titebond II and have heated and reactivated as long as two days after laying the veneer.

5. After you have trimmed off excess veneer - take your thumb and fan the entire edge (like you would shuffle thru pages in a book or a deck of cards) and listen for spots where the veneer is loose around the edge. Heat and roll any you find.

6. Bubbles under the veneer usually happen when too much heat is applied. With some practice everyone using this method will find their own settings. Not enough heat and your veneer will be crackling under the roller until your supper is cold. TOO MUCH heat will melt the glue and quite often cause bubbles. If you have a bubble that persists, it can be sliced open using a thin blade modeling knife. Let any trapped air escape, roll the hell out of it and apply less heat in that area to get a bond.

7. Applying the glue - I apply 2 (sometimes 3) coats to each surface using a 4" paint roller. Most veneer manufacturers recommend a 6 to 8 mil glue coating between veneer and substrate. If you skimp and apply only one coat you'll some day, after a big change inhumidity, find your veneer lifting from the surface. Titebond II turns clear when it's dry to the touch. When the first coat is dry you can apply the second/third coat. You can wait as long as a couple of days to apply your veneer but I have had the best results after waiting just an hour or two after the last coat is dry. It will appear dry but you will be able to penetrate the glue with your finger nail and it will feel a bit like a hard rubber surface. If you wait a day or more the glue will be HARD and even though heat will reactivate and bond, I have gotten the best results with the rubber like surface.

That's a lot of rambling and babbling but maybe my techniques will help some of you achieve the results you're looking for. I've had a lot of frustration doing veneer work but have worked out the bugs and have been getting good results.

Buy some veneer and go for it. Rick

I have read about using that method... I have been concerned about blisters forming over time. Johnny, have you had any pieces that you have done with this technique fail? Do you have any pieces that are say 10-20 years old?

Widget

[Rolf]

Exellent post riessen. This is about the same as I found out, but you gave me a few hints. Thanks

Rolf

[yggdrasil]

Very thorough and good post Rick.


My first project with this technique is only one year old. No new problems yet.

I must admit the first panels was more difficult than the last panels. Mainly due to saving glue. Go with Rick's advice and apply more than one coat, especially to the particle board if that is used.

I also had a few spots with too little glue where I applied glue trhough the veneer using a syringe and thinned glue.

A book on industrial veneering stated that contact glue was only for repair on small spots.

[Mr. Widget]

I'll give that method a shot one of these days...

I have an iron I bought for $5 at a thrift store. It is the shop iron used for edge banding... sometimes a bit of the glue gets on the iron surface, even though my wife hates ironing too... if I borrowed her iron and returned it with residue... it wouldn't be pretty.


Widget

[edgewound]

I'll give that method a shot one of these days...

I have an iron I bought for $5 at a thrift store. It is the shop iron used for edge banding... sometimes a bit of the glue gets on the iron surface, even though my wife hates ironing too... if I borrowed her iron and returned it with residue... it wouldn't be pretty.


Widget

Man...I'd better get to a thrift shop soon. All these great deals....$3.99 L100's, $5.00 irons...then off to eBay them$$$$$

Seriously....I love seeing the member's projects progress....there is so much talent around here.

[saeman]

Besides applying veneer using wood glue there are some out there who use contact cement instead. It would be nice to hear from those guys with their tricks and procedures. I have used contact cement on occasion but try to avoid it's use. Here are some of my observations related to the use of contact cement:

1. Contact cement is used to bond veneer by many commercial suppliers. They have the ability to spray apply a commercial version of what we call contact cement and also have the necessary presses and heat to ensure proper bonding. Us do-it-at-home guys are at a big disadvantage in this area. Evenly applied coats (no lumps, no thin spots) is hard to do out of a can.

2. If your project yields any exposed veneer edges you will find those edges hard to hide. The contact cement will not sand free and it will not take stain. I've used things like brown permanent markers and paint pencils to hide the edge with some success.

3. If you are veneering panels that will have trim around the edges, using contact cement will yield good results.

4. There is veneer available that has a 3M brand self adhesive backing (peel and stick) and I have used it several times with good results however there is the same problem hiding any exposed edges. Applying this veneer directly to a sanded wood surface is risky. The surface needs to be clean and sealed before application. I have applied a good coat of polyeurethane varnish to the surface, sanded smoothe and then cleaned the surface with mineral spirits before placing the veneer. With heat and a veneer roller you can get good results.

Just some additional thoughts I wanted to share with all would be veneer installers. I'm always up for learing new tricks so if anyone out there has any, I'm all ears.

Rick

[4313B]

I use contact cement. Weldwood to be specific. Back in the 70's I had trouble as the Watco eventually penetrated and deactivated the adhesive. I switched to a proprietary automobile vinyl top adhesive and that ended that problem. Now I use polyacrylates which negate the eventual adhesive failure problem so it's back to Weldwood.

I started out using Paxton veneers, then Rockler veneers for nearly 20 years (both 10 mil veneers). Then Mr. Widget turned me on to http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/ and I'm trying their 22 mil veneers to great effect. I really like their product.

There's no question that wood glue and a vacuum are the best way to apply veneer.

[saeman]

Hi Giskard - Thanx for tuning in. How do you deal with exposed veneer edges - assuming you have them from time to time?? I'm glad you specifically mentioned Oakwood Veneers as they're truely a class operation. I'm currently cutting up about $400 of their AA Figured Walnut for a couple of monitor projects. The owner Pete offers a "no questions asked" return guarantee and he has always answered my questions. I've used their paper back, bubble free and phoenolic backed in 10 mil and it's all been real high quality. At $7+ a square foot you need some quality guarantee and these guys back their product. I finished one of my 4341's a while back and after oil was applied I found paper showing thru the veneer. It came from another source. You get what you pay for - as the saying goes. Rick

[Rolf]

I also had a few spots with too little glue where I applied glue trhough the veneer using a syringe and thinned glue.

A book on industrial veneering stated that contact glue was only for repair on small spots.

I don't know if I was just lucky, my veneer is (so far) perfectly attached to the boxes. If a small spot should be loose I will go for the same solution as yggdrasil.

Last update: Both speakers are now polished with non-colored wax, and to me they look stunning. When I manage to cut and fit the solid walnut on the front edges, new pictures wil come.

Rolf

[4313B]

Hi Giskard - Thanx for tuning in. How do you deal with exposed veneer edges - assuming you have them from time to time??

A laminate trimmer.

Don't think for a moment that I am a woodworking expert. It is definitely just a hobby for me and I am nowhere near a master craftsman. That would be my dad and I am not a chip off the old block in that respect.

I found paper showing thru the veneer.

Yep. Had the same problem before. That's when I whipped out the paint and paint brush. You can see a JBL picture somewhere of a guy painting the veneer line on a box. So far with this 22 mil veneer from Oakwood all the exposed edges are wood and you can't see any paper.

[saeman]

So far with this 22 mil veneer from Oakwood all the exposed edges are wood and you can't see any paper.

22mil paper back veneer???? I've not seen that on their inventory list. I need to give them a call. It's alwys been my uderstanding that the "mil" size referred to the thickness of the paper backing and that the wood veneer laminated to the paper was the same thickness. So - 10 mil veneer is wood veneer laminated onto 10 mil thick paper. Overall thickness will vary depending on how much finish sanding is done at the mill to provide a finished product. So - based on what I've been told 22 mil veneer would have the same wood layer laminated onto a 22 mil paper back. What I've always taken for gospel is now starting to bug me. I need to make a call first thing Monday and get some answers.

Always something new when we get into these discussions - Thanx

[4313B]

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