I agree with your analysis (whether you're correct is not for me to say :dont-know ) and would add that the L250>XPL200>L7>PT800/PS1400 four-way consumer speaker path is one I admire greatly, with the PT800/PS1400 being the most current and to me most satisfying representative, despite a few limitations. It certainly hits the right quality and price points.Originally Posted by johnaec
Out.
I was curious so I took some numbers from the MSRP list on this site and ran them through the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator. This was to compare with the PT800/PS1400 at $3500 ($1700+$1800)
L300 $1500 in '82 --->$3082 today
L250 $1300 in '85 --->$3129 today
250Ti $2499 in '91 --->$3638 today
L7 $1000 in '95 --->$1301 today
XPL200A $1699 in '92 --->2359 today
For the more modest consumer
L100 $273 in '71 --->$1336 today
L100 $489 in '77 --->$1600 today
L110 $430 in '80 --->$1034 today
L112 $550 in '83 --->$1095 today
L100T $625 in '88 --->$1047 today
120Ti $669 in '89 --->$1117 today
L100T3 $729 in '91 --->$1061 today
Oh, I shouldn't forget the Paragon
D44000 $2500 in '71 --->$12240 today
So you are looking for something a cut above the Northridge Series or Studio L Series but below the TiK and Performance Series?Brilliant work Phil H....you made my point.
That's a great list, Phil. The L250 and 250Ti are very close to the PS. Since I'm not very well-versed in the inflation calculator, can you elaborate a bit on how it works? For example, does it take a static figure, say a retail price in 1980 and use currency inflation or COLA as the basis of predicting a current price? Or does it look at the various factors involved in the production of an item, calculate the increases in those costs, and produce a "this-is-what-it-would-cost-to-make-it-today" price?Brilliant work Phil H....you made my point.Some the better offerings from JBL are no where to be found in dealer's showrooms, either....in Southern California, no less.
As an example, I'm betting the cost of walnut veneer has gone up faster than the rate of inflation and would cause a product to be more costly to manufacture today than a simple rate of inflation calculation could express. Would that factor be ignored by the inflation calculator?
In any event, it looks like the L7 could be a barn burner of a bargain, even though it's not quite in the same class...or is it?
Here's a list of Tweeter Stores in CA, most of which are in SoCal. I checked a couple and they have the Performance Series in-store. They're selling PT800s for $1600. http://www.tweeter.com/corp/index.jsp
The best factory authorized value is still at harmanaudio.com where the PT800 is $1050 and the PS1400 is $1119. http://harmanaudio.com/search_browse...JBL&market=HOM
When comparing the Performance Series stacks to the other gear, remember that there's a 400W amp and two enclosures in the mix. (Although vinyl clad enclosures, I know. No walnut or black ash here.)
Sing Young Home Theater World in San Diego, San Gabriel, and Eagle Rock (Los Angeles) was carrying the Performance Series in-store, but now it's special order. They've got the TiK Series, however. http://www.karaokemusicworld.com/aud...ductID&pages=4
Out.
'Good point! That's several hundreds of dollars in amplification value right there, (plus the 14" advantage over the 12's in the L7's and XPL200's)!
Factor that in/out, and the Performance series seems right on the money, with the added benefit of a matching center, if desired.
John
Has any one compaired de perfomnce series vs LSR 6332 with lsr6312p sub
4 way vs 4 way is in the same price range
i have LSR
and i have never heard the perfomance
The lack of real wood is a huge negative for me. I suppose JBL agrees since they are offering the Project Array Series in real wood.
Since I haven't heard or seen the Performance Series in person, I probably shouldn't comment, but after reading so many of your posts I feel almost as if they are in the other room.That said, it seems to me that the Performance series was designed with a low price point in mind and then either production costs or the level of their actual performance dictated that they would be priced more mid market. It is just surprising that other people offer $200 speakers in exquisite hardwoods and these at 10X that range are vinyl.
Widget
The lack of real wood is a huge negative for me. I suppose JBL agrees since they are offering the Project Array Series in real wood.
Since I haven't heard or seen the Performance Series in person, I probably shouldn't comment, but after reading so many of your posts I feel almost as if they are in the other room.
Widget
I wasn't real sure when I bought them whether they were real black ash or not. I assumed so since my L7s were real ash. Even after the truck dropped the pallet at my house and I took them upstairs, I wasn't certain if it was a really thin veneer or vinyl. Once I turned a PT800 upside down, then it was obvious, looking at the unfinished edge.
Fortunately, I pursued them for their sound, not their finish, so my disappointment was slight and fleeting. They look just fine for black speakers; in fact, the cherry looks pretty good, too. It's the sound that put me on the hunt, and it's the sound that keeps them in the house.
The L250s are another story. I really bid on them because of the looks. I thought I needed a real wood veneer classic to show off, I suppose. So many people raved about the design, that I really pursued them to own the look. Having heard them in the past, I had no illusions that they'd be better sounding than the PS--they're not IMO. But they are stunning and real wood, too. Having achieved the visual goal of the L250s, I find myself liking the sound quite a bit, too. But the L250s remain in the garage/studio, not the main listening room.
Out.
The calculator is at the BLS website (http://www.bls.gov/) There are several pages of information on how it is calculated. It is based on the consumer price index. Breifly: "The CPI inflation calculator uses the average Consumer Price Index for a given calendar year. This data represents changes in prices of all goods and services purchased for consumption by urban households. This index value has been calculated every year since 1913. For the current year, the latest monthly index value is used." There are too many variables to include all of them. One would have to know the price of walnut in the past and compare that to today's values. I know that good quality domestic hardwood was plentiful at one time. But, we have used up the trees faster than they can grow.
Styles and materials for construction change. My personal preferences change. For the good or the bad, my taste in furnishing is moving backwards in time. When I was young, plastic commodity goods where an evil thing and "made in Japan" meant low quality. Today, plastics are wonderful and products manufactured in China have improved dramatically. I do not want this thread to go sideway (I avoid products made in China for other reasons). My point is that times change. I wish JBL had a modern day L100. By this, I mean a good product at a modest price that has tremendous sales.
I wasn't trying to make any kind of pissing match out of this. I really don't have much of an opinion. If I see something I like and I can afford it, I buy it. It is pointless for me worry about how I think it should be. Prices and price points are things that I just accept. It would be more informative to compare the price history with other speaker manufactures to see where the JBL's stand against the rest of the market. Like you pointed out, the L250 > Performance Series progression and price point has been fairly stable.
The only reason I haven't bought a set of the Performance Series, is that I can not justify the expense. I am 45, My dominant hand is worn out from work and some stinkin' sugery on my elbow made things worse. So, I am a full-time student at CSULA. I won't have a engineering degree for another 1-1/2 years. I am lucky that I can maintain my current standard of living and buy a few used speakers without any income.
That is one thing that probably keeps the Performance series from being substantially more expensive, especially with the complex angles involved. But if done well, I'd rather that than a prohibitively high price point, preventing entry into that level of sound quality, (as if I could afford them right now).
'Too bad they don't offer them in unfinished kit form, allowing those so inclined to apply the veneer or finish of their choice. I guess the negatives are obvious, though - JBL surely doesn't want to see their name associated with a poorly executed example...
John
They do offer the satellites in plain black for in-wall mounting. Part of the Synthesis series.
Sure, they cut some corners, but they put the money where it counts. Even the studio series are built like a brick shit house and they beat audiofile speakers at 10X the price.
I wouldn't sell any of it right away.
I'd put the 046Ti-1 and 093Ti with the 2108 and 2203 in new boxes, bi-amp with custom cards in the DX-1, and call it a day.
You'll still have all the original items in case you want to put anything back to original.
After reading Greg's post, I actually thought of that. Maybe I'll try that sometime.
John
Bingo!
Maybe someday I'll send you some pictures of my "XPL250's".
I built them in such a way that I could use the 112H/093Ti/046Ti-1 8-inch 3-ways bi-amped to either my 121H subs, LE14H-1 subs, or SUB1500 subs. The 046Ti-1 and 093Ti are mounted in an enclosure roughly a 1/2" wider then their frames are and the edges are cut back ala PT800. The 112H is in a 0.4 cu ft enclosure with minimal baffle width designed in the same octagonal shape as the PT800's. It's really pretty cool actually but I am considering also building a mini 250Ti type enclosure just for the 8-inch 3-ways. My wife likes that look better. Maybe someday if I get bored and feel like cutting up some MDF.
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