Quick and Dirty test ride impressions

[Zilch]

Thanks again Zilch buddy for having me over - I had a blast!!!

My pleasure, anytime. Forum members always welcome!

As a working DJ, Robert has heard the gamut of sound systems in the various clubs he's played, and also has his own pro monitor setup as reference. I was uncertain as to how well the Q&D's would stand up in comparison, especially with his "contemporary" remixes, which push the limits of sound reproduction.

NOOb or no, he immediately grasped what was going on here, and it was well appreciated. It also seems like an RTA is moving rapidly to the top of his gear acquisition list.

[And a monster sub or two, maybe, as well.... ]

[porschedpm]

In the process of picking up my order of JBL Blue Grill Cloth last Wednesday from Zilch (thank you Mr. Zilch for stepping up to the plate and making the investment in this cloth so that so many of us here can benefit), I had the unique opportunity of listening to four variations of the Zilch "Quick and Dirties". After we got the grill cloth measured and cut, and the bizness part of the visit out of the way, Zilch took me on a tour of his workshop. Zilch slipped in a CD of dZihan and Kamien, music that member Infredible turned him on to and that Zilch now also uses for critical listening sessions. We listened to the following Q&D variants in the following order:

1) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-H95 horns with 2431H drivers sitting on top of the L200's

2) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-F1010 horns with 2431H drivers in the cabinets.

3) The Original Quick & Dirties
LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
HF: 2344 Bi-radial horns with 2426H drivers on top of the B380's

4) LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
HF: 2346 Everest Horns with LE85 drivers sitting on the floor in front
of the B380 cabinets.,

Let me just say that I've never before listened to 4425's, 4430's, or 4435's. I'm used to listening to either my 4343's (with 4344 drivers) or 240Ti's. I didn't have high expectation of what these 2-way designs were going to sound like. I expected the sound to be more like the sound of a 2-way JBL horn loaded Club speaker: rolled off lows, rolled off highs, but good in the middle. What I heard, though, blew me away. If I didn't see/hear it for myself, I would not have believed such smooth and full sound could come from 2-way speakers. In all of the four Q&D variants, The bass was full and detailed. It was not heavy or fat. The clarity of the mids was astounding, and followed through to the highs. The highs tingled for lack of a better word. In all four of the systems there was transparency to the music. Maybe it was because of the amps, or the crossovers (they were works of art themselves), or the drivers, or the interaction of them all. It certainly wasn't due to the room acoustics because Zilch's workshop is not close to ideal. I don't know. But the the transparency was definitely there and it allowed not only the piano notes themselves but also the harmonics of the music come through.

The differences between the four systems were very subtle. System #2 seemed to be a little more laid back in the midrange than System #1. But according to Zilch that was due to System 1's horns, which were sitting on top of the L200's, being more at ear level than System 2's which were mounted inside the cabinet. Both #1 and #2 had a flat, full, detailed bass and crystal clear highs. I couldn't say System 1 was better than 2 or vice-versa. Only that they were slightly different. But both were very, very good. System #3, the original version of the Quick & Dirty, sounded like a good combination between #1 and #2. The highs on system 3 seemed to have just slightly less tingle-a little flater on the upper end. Not so much that I felt I was missing anything. Just a very slight difference. The highs were still very clear and very tingly. And if you didn't have these systems there in the same room to A/B you'd never know there was a difference. But still, to say #1 or #2 was better than #3, I couldn't do that. Zilch auditioned system 4 for me mostly to demonstrate the imaging of the Everest horns. Two things amazed me about this system. First, was the performance of the LE85 driver that was mated to the 2346 Everest horns. This 35 year old driver was no slouch and gave up nothing to the more modern drivers. Secondly, the imaging of the Everest horns were incredible. Keep in mind these horns were sitting on the floor. But as you moved around the room, it seemed the sweet spot moved with you, sitting or standing. You could easily love any one of these four systems. They are all excellent, high-end speakers more than capable of running with the big dogs. I aked Zilch if he had a favorite and he said he liked them all. He said he'll listen to one system for a few weeks and then switch to another. There are subtle differences between them but no one system stands out as the best. Thanks again, Zilch, for the rare treat of auditioning these. I certainly have a new respect for the 4430's and the Q&D's. (Spent most of Saturday reading the Q&D Discussion Thread). I've also started looking at L200's with a new found respect (and lust). And I'm thinking I need to get a Behringer Ultracurve Pro DEQ 2496 RTA so I can see what my speakers are doing.

Ed S.

[Earl K]

- Nice review Ed !

- I'm glad all of Ziches efforts at furthering the humble 2-way are paying these dividends .

- ( Okay Zilch , now how about grabbing those H9800/435Be combos from the Widget so that you can rework Project Mays' HF band-pass into a "no-tweeter" version - this MTM version had been requested by Don many moons ago )

<> EARLK

[Zilch]

Thank you, Ed, for documenting your impressions so thoroughly here. As always, it's a pleasure to welcome forum members for a listen. I must tell you all there's no better bunch of folks than the Lansing Heritage has assembled.

Most everyone who has heard them has observed as Ed does how remarkably similar these systems sound. I've consciously attempted to control the many variables; everything's the same right down to the type of bypass capacitors used in the crossovers. All run on 6230 and 6260 amps. The major differences are the horns (waveguides) and compression drivers in the various systems.

I earlier remarked that we are well past 2370A vs. 2344A here. Indeed, the variations are subtle. If it can be said that there is a "Signature" sound to the 4430 formula, I think that's what is playing here now, and it is delicious....

[Mr. Widget]

I popped in briefly yesterday and heard the improvements that Zilch has made to his not very quick but slightly dirty two-way speakers.

I'll use Ed's numbering system.

1) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-H95 horns with 2431H drivers sitting on top of the L200's

I found these to have excellent detail above 1KHz (the range covered by the PT-H95 horns and compression drivers). I felt that Zilch has definitely been able to get the highs out of his speakers though I really didn't like the high frequency response above about 8KHz. I found it hard, bright, and too aggressive.

In as much as it is possible to get a sense of imaging from the speakers in Zilch's Lab, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I think they very well may image well, but I'd really like to hear them in a furnished living room in a proper equilateral triangle setup.

Below 1KHz I found the blending of the 2235H to the compression driver and horn to be OK, but not ideal. As before, I felt I was missing some detail at the upper end of the 2235H's range. A stock 4430 gets this integration about as well as can be done with a 15" woofer and horn. I have heard better bass from 2235Hs and suggested Zilch take a look at the cabinets for resonances... true I have been battling these demons myself recently and may be a bit too sensitive there. I just know I have heard better bass from these woofers. It could be a room issue, room placement, or as I suspect the cabinets.

Next we listened to:

2) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-F1010 horns with 2431H drivers in the cabinets.

After I commented on the extreme brightness in the first system Zilch made some adjustments to his equalizer... I am not sure if that affected the second system as well, but they were significantly less bright. They certainly were not dull sounding, but not overly bright as the first pair. I did find them a bit lacking in detail resolution. I am not sure if this is due to their physical placement or the horns themselves. I asked Zilch to let me hear them with the grilles removed.. it seemed to help slightly. I would suggest more experiments need to be performed to determine if the difference between the two is physical placement, crossover network, or the horns.

The bass and integration to the HF horn was essentially the same for this speaker as in the first test.

The third system we listened to:

4) LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
HF: 2346 Everest Horns with LE85 drivers sitting on the floor in front
of the B380 cabinets.

Here the large Everest horns lay on the floor and create an unusual listening arrangement. They are quite unusual in their response as you walk around the room... they are kind of bassakwards in that as move around the room, the further speaker becomes more on axis and it dominates the sound stage, which is just the opposite of other speakers. I found this curious and a bit disturbing.

The most striking thing to me was the quality of the HF response through them. For the first time through any of Zilch's speakers I heard a top end I could live with. I asked which drivers we were listening to and it was the LE85s... they were being boosted with the 3110A "boost" (midrange cut) of the crossover and they really had a nice clean top end that was free of the hard edged sound of the others.

To sum up, I'll give Zilch credit that he has really pulled a lot of HF out of these "mid range" drivers. The driver I preferred by far was the venerable old LE85. If good affordable sound is what you're after some of these designs may be the solution for you. If your goal is somewhat higher, I think the PT-H95 horn is intriguing, but I think I would pursue using it in a 4-way. I still don't believe it is possible to get state of the art performance out of any 15" woofer at 1000Hz. I also think that the HF of a dedicated tweeter is simply superior to what I heard being coaxed out of the 3" diaphragmed drivers.

Widget

[Zilch]

It's always a learning experience as well as great fun when Mr. Widget drops by. He can draw the RTA curve just from listening.

His initial reaction that I had perhaps overdone it with HF extension on the PT-H95's elicited a big grin and double "thumbs up" from me. I can always back it down, as desired. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time to try that this time. They were, in fact, getting a little EQ boost up there.

I certainly agree that the old LE85's are strong contenders here. I've acquired some D8R2421 diaphragms to experiment with different crossovers using them. Some of the best-sounding horn combinations I've tested have been with these old general purpose drivers, and in the one case we tested using CLIO, the HF extension was better than titanium-diaphragm 2426's.

Interestingly, the HF he liked the best is somewhat rolled off at the very high end. Some would contend that it's only distortion what's playing up above mass breakpoint there, anyway. It's not as if we can actually hear it.

I haven't begun to figure out the Everest soundstage thing yet. The big horns are just too difficult to manipulate in this space. Once the H2600 throats arrive, we'll get to play around with making the "mini" version work. The behavior is startling at first, indeed.

And finally, I'll certainly check for resonances in the L200 cabinets, a simple task with Woofer Tester 2. They could benefit from some bracing, no doubt, but I'm not gonna do the sand thing Mr. Widget is trying, nope....

[johnaec]

I finally got a chance to really hear Zilch's system using the mini-everest horns, and along with a friend of mine, we were able to listen directly to the difference between the biased and un-biased versions, as Zilch plugged and unplugged the battery on both channels. Both my friend and I were able to perceive a slight difference, with the biased versions sounding barely perceptibly "brighter", though if I checked the RTA response, I might have used a different term. But either way, we both thought the mini-everests sounded great!

You really have to re-think your expectations as you move your head around and sided to side with these - you're so used to hearing the point-source change to a degree that when it doesn't, you really have to do a double-take. It's somewhat unsettling the first time... Personally though, with 1" drivers, these are my favorite horns so far. We listened to the exact same system with 2344's, and I myself preferred the mini-everests.

John

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I quite enjoyed the reviews and would love to visit the lad myself? Perhaps in the not to distant future?

Ken

[Zilch]

I quite enjoyed the reviews and would love to visit the lad myself? Perhaps in the not to distant future?

Well, "Lad" is overly generous, perhaps, but you're welcome any time....

[Ken Pachkowsky]

You would be more than welcome here as well.

Ken

[Zilch]

Okay Zilch , now how about grabbing those H9800/435Be combos from the Widget so that you can rework Project Mays' HF band-pass into a "no-tweeter" version....

The Project May team suggested a two-way approach early on, in fact. There are certainly precedents in the lineage.

Unless there are limitations in the H9800 itself, it'd work quite nicely, no doubt. There are always compromises in these design approaches, and two-way certainly pushes the limits of current technology across the performance spectrum.

Mr. Widget has himself often affirmed the worthiness of the two-way objective. Integrating the 045Be supertweeter into a three-way design was determined to be more consistent with Project May performance criteria, though, and I agree with that.

Maybe there's a pair of H9800's in the future here. I'm bettin' 2431H's would play pretty nicely on them....