Thanks Grumpy. On the S99's, I recall the additional damping immediately eliminated their "boxy" sound.Originally Posted by grumpy
Take out some stuffing and listen/measure. It would be interesting (to me, at least).
Next time I open these L55's up, I'll try removing the insulation I added. I never listened to them without it; just wanted to get them running. You know the drill.
There must be some downside to overstuffing. :dont-know
- Overstuffing can lead to an overdamped / deadened midrange .
- Since the le14a is already so damped in this tonal area , I wonder if a person would ever notice a difference when using too much fiberglass .
- As Grumpy has said, this is usually a nuance that needs to be tuned to ones' own taste in midrange liveliness .
- David B. Weems , in his book, "Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual" had a tip or two, on tuning the "stuffing by ear" / but unfortunately I can't seem to find the specific paragraph(s) for reference.
Has anyone tried the 4435 set up in a mtm arangement ?
I remember a while back that there was a system made by E-speaker , it was TAD drivers 1601 or 1603c's with a tad smith style horn in a mtm arangement that had clamed + or - 1 dp from 20 to 20k , I wonder if it could work here / or would there be a lopping problem with a wider spread horn ?
"Has anyone tried the 4435 set up in a mtm arangement ?"
Hello Kartsmart
Then it wouldn't be a 4435. There is no way to run both 15's fullrange and end up with the same lowend response. A 4435 is really a 2 1/2 way and the second woofer kicks in around 100hz??? or so. You might be able to pull it off with 2235's but spacing them might be an issue. We tried a similar arangement in Project May which is still in process. You would be better off using something like 2123's with a woofer under. From experience the 2123 and 2344 horn combo sound very good together.
Rob
thanks rob, so does the 4435's use the same size bass chambers for the woofers? why I ask is that I have gathering info. to be able to build a set using 2 tad 1602's and the 2420 1" compression drivers that I already have. it was sujusted that I read the "quick and dirty 4430" wow that was a long thread, but not sure what the final result was. but liked it alot. you have to admit he's on a mission.
on my last project I did a lot of reserch first than built, I had a plan ! well I found out a 2 way not so easy, now Im doing it over again . hopefully not the same mistakes.
I had a plan, too. It's in post #1.
You see what happened....
Consistent with its original design, L55 gets a tweeter.
The LE20 it came with was crossed at 2 kHz; one of the systems that contributed to the LE14A woofer being branded as having "muddy midrange." More expensive configurations in other models used LE175 compression driver crossed at 1.5 kHz, still too high for LE14A, probably. No HF boost was incorporated with these, so both the mids and highs were compromised by current standards.
Here, 2407H "annular-ring diaphragm re-entrant compression driver" is mounted on inexpensive OASR "Dr. Seuss" horn and driven with modified 1.3 kHz, 24 dB/octave AM4212 crossover discussed above, incorporating LF compensation as well, to mitigate LE14A's rising response. (Too much, perhaps, as shown below in 6" near-field response RTA curve.) HF extension goes out to 30 kHz, presumably, though I have no means to measure that.
Total combined system response is quite good. AutoEQ (GEQ) says it's within +/- 2 dB. This system sounds especially smooth, as well; no "harshness" from this polyester diaphragm. A definite "keeper."
Sidebar: What's happening here? RTA response curves are without any EQ, but I run DEQ2496 "AutoEQ" to show on its graphic equalizer screen (GEQ) what EQ it would apply to render flat response. This provides me with an objectively acquired visual indication of overall performance in comparison to that standard, and guidance as to what adjustments, if any, might be made to the passive crossover to improve the system response. A "tilted" standard with room correction is also available, as desired.
Why does it not show compensation in the 20-80Hz region?
Are you aware that those horns look just like the pedistools of my dining room chairs minus the shaft..., right down to the bolt holes to hold the seat.
Well, it's a mess down there due to room effects and RTA's inherent far-field LF measurement limitations.
What Behringer says:
"It makes sense to exclude the low-frequency range (up to approx. 100 Hz) from AUTO EQing, because it is this range that may produce inaccuracies during the calculation of the frequency response, which might impair the results achieved with the AUTO EQ."
It'd give it huge unwarranted boost down there, is what.
In process, you can see it struggling with the LF compensation long after it has figured out the HF. It dithers the individual bands up, then down, then up again, endlessly. After enough of watching that you hit the "Done" button....
Hey Zilch,
Why don't you start a new thread each time you start a new project? It certainly would make wading through it a lot easier/possible.
Any update on Clio?
Widget
Hello Kartsmart
"I did a lot of reserch first than built, I had a plan ! well I found out a 2 way not so easy, now Im doing it over again . hopefully not the same mistakes."
Good idea. I spend a good deal of time as well. I have found it's not easy to scratch build something and have it really sound good as well. It's not all that hard to get one or two things right but it's hard as hell to get a good balance between all the things we want from a good loudspeaker. That would be F/R power handling/Transient response/Smooth power response/good balance between drivers with smooth transitions/good imaging/low fatique factor and on and on! I cloned speakers to use as benchmarks. That was the only way I could really determine if I was heading the right way. I couldn't really measure the whole presentation just select parts of it and then with marginal resolution. Sounds like you have a good plan using the TAD woofers. I would run them against the 2234 and 2235 in a box program to see which of the 2 are the closer match. Then go from there. Can the 1602 get up to 1k+??
Rob
Hi, Mr. Widget!
I just eMailed for an update on CLIO shipping. I don't have a tracking number yet, so it's not left Italy, my guess.
I need to talk to you about an appropriate means of inserting the linked table of contents at the beginning of this thread. I'm thinking move post #1 into #2 and put it there. Otherwise, it messes up the numerous links to the thread throughout the forum.
As to the larger matter of content, I'll explain it in the preface: These systems (about 10 of them now,) all incorporate what I have found to be essential elements of the 4430 "formula" during the past year. This is not about specific implementations, rather, about discovering the requisite principles and techniques for accomplishing them.
For example, this little rescue of L55's from the landfill has contributed substantially to the project findings in demonstrating that pushing an appropriately designed tweeter lower is as viable an approach as HF boosting a general-purpose compression driver. There's an intermediate solution, as well, which will be my final major contribution to the thread, for now.
As promised, tho, it's a wrap -- almost. I discovered something in the course of working with 2407H that may bring it all back home to post #1.
[I'll check that little surprise out this week. Teaser RTA curve below; I'm listening to it now....]
A 3120A
I'd recommend you buy them for that, Todd, for "Research"....
Hey Zilch...
That little 2407 loolks pretty good on your RTA....sound good to? I acquired a pair recently....anxious to do something with them.
Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA
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